this post was submitted on 01 Jun 2024
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"To the left of" is relative. Progressive liberals are left of conservative liberals as well as most if not all tankies. (it depends on how you metricize all the disparate positions into a single dimension) there are probably some conservative liberals that are to the right of most tankies, but again it depends on your metricizing parameters.
I'm a Libertarian Socialist who gets along with Anarchists most of the time. I'm arguably to the right of them, but that doesn't make me right-wing.
You’re spot on about the relativity, but there is an objective spectrum as well.
Right is about consolidating power; Left is about ensuring it is shared.
The extreme right is authoritarian. Any support for (or tolerance of) the consolidation of power and/or wealth is rightist.
The extreme left is egalitarian. Support for systems of shared power and/or wealth (and mechanisms for prevention of hoarding or entrenchment of either) is leftist.
So while you are correct about the relative positions to one another, it’s important to point out that, objectively, neither liberals nor tankies are leftist in any way, shape, or form.
Also, the spectrum isn’t a straight line, but a complex web. For example, just consider the “extremes”…
Extreme right power structures include monarchy, oligarchy, dictatorship, feudalism, etc. Because the nature of rightism is consolidation, those structures tend to look similar.
“Extreme” left power structures include direct democracy, communism (stateless), anarchism (which itself includes many flavors and definitions), and the like.
Since tankies openly advocate for consolidation of power, they are objectively far-right. Liberals will tolerate (sometimes even champion) the consolidation of wealth & power even if it destroys liberalism… because to them the means is more important the ends; ergo, they are slight right.
Humans being humans, there will always be “rightward pressure” on any social construct. Leftists need to recognize this and ensure than any leftist progress can withstand such pressure and avoid rightward drift. This is why liberals are so often despised by leftists… liberals seem leftist only to those so far on the right that they can’t see over the metaphorical moderate/centrist horizon. Likewise, tankies seem leftist to the same at first glance, because they advocate for more benevolent use of totalitarianism… but each ignores the objective spectrum… consolidation of wealth/power vs evenly shared wealth/power.
You understand that I never suggested that liberals are left-wing and that was the entire point of my explanation?
There's nothing stated here that I didn't already know.
I’m not disagreeing, I’m just building on what you said. ❤️
There’s a surprising number of people - especially in the US, that genuinely think that liberals are leftist… and not just leftist, but “radical left.”
They will also take tankies at their word that tankies are leftist, never mind the definitions.
I’m just expounding on what you said for bystanders, really. Sending good vibes your way, internet friend.
Sorry, yesterday was a bit rough for me. 🙂
Been there. Hope you’re feeling better, today!
I'm not sure they were disagreeing with you.
I was passing out when I made the comment. What I really want to know is why why this entire thread is being downvoted to hell. Is it several tankies or just 1 with multiple accounts?
I'm one of the "tankies" downvoting the thread, but I just have the one account. You said something obviously wrong and the other person somehow managed to disagree with you while saying essentially the exact same wrong thing. It seemed like a pointless argument about nonsense.
Tankies aren't leftists.
Correct. But they like to pretend they are. The amount of mental gymnastics and Newspeak they need to get there is truly profound.
“We are leftist because OUR totalitarianism is benevolent!”
Like… that is not the way it works. That is now how any of this works. 🤣
Yes, that is the obviously wrong thing you both said.
Oh no, the authoritarian rightists fee-fees got hurt because us nasty lefties won’t let them get away with Ur-fascist Newspeak!
So sorry… well, not really.
I have no idea what you're even talking about at this point.
And your point is? If it’s that rightist means inevitably have rightist ends, that is correct. Thankfully, possibility is infinite, and not restricted to the false-choice of a binary fallacy.
Is the use of force inherently rightist, in your mind, regardless of why it's used?