To clarify, the pictured poster Caroline Kwan is an ally, not a TERF. The TERFs referred to in the title are the ones ‘protecting a very specific idea of what a woman is’
this post was submitted on 11 Aug 2024
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Yes. I think that this is the concern of everyone who is genuinely interested in fair competition. While I'm sure that some people are triggered ( in both directions ) by the transgender debate.
I mentioned in another thread that I think the simple solution to this is to not define divisions by gender, but to simply measure testosterone and have a high-T "open" division and a low-T division. This is where the perceived competitive advantage lies and sidesteps the whole gender issue entirely.
While sensible, is T really the only factor at play here? Once you get into the science where do you draw the line?
Realistically it probably depends on the sport. Y chromosomes, being exposed to certain levels of testosterone in utero (unless one is resistant or unresponsive to the hormone), being exposed to certain levels of testosterone in puberty and maintaining certain levels of testosterone all do things to the body than could effect performance and that's all still mostly just focused on the one hormone. How much each of those things has an impact (if any) is going to depend entirely on the nature of the sport in question.
Should Brittney Griner be tested for testosterone and then forced to play in the NBA if it's too high?
You can't tell how high someone is by measuring testosterone. Maybe you were thinking of the Toblerone test.
Cute weed joke considering it landed her in a horrific Russian prison as a queer woman, but also, I didn't say she was too high.
You're right. Determining what's fair and what isn't is a task non-transphobic scientists should be working on, not something you discuss lightly around a beer at a pub. There needs to be actual research.
Transphobes will probably not like the conclusions of that research, though...
The WNBA is still part of the NBA. She's been playing in the NBA
You know what I mean.
What's funny is that is THE issue we're discussing - misogyny in sports. That the NBA in your mind defaults to "Real Men's Basketball^TM" and women have this little side denominator with their girl basketball.... like no. Be exact if you don't want to be sexist. The NBA is both the men's and women's basketball associations.
What you MEANT was whether Britney should change to the men's division of the NBA.
...or I don't watch basketball and just didn't know that.
Nah, it must be that I hate women.
What do you think the letters in "NBA" stand for?
Interesting apology for your accidental misogyny. Kinda looks like you do hate women.
I know you really want to get angry at someone who doesn't know about basketball and thought that the two groups were "NBA" for men and "WNBA" for women, but that's literally how I have always heard those two divisions named. So call me as hateful as you like, but the truth is I have no idea what to call the men's league now. I've never seen anyone call it MNBA anywhere. Certainly not the press.
Right, because of overwhelming sexism in sports. I don't "hate" you or feel any emotion towards you. I'm pointing out how sexism in sports isn't just the Olympics, it's so pervasive we even see it in things like the colloquial use of the term 'NBA.' If someone is concerned about bigotry in sports, then wouldn't they want to examine other areas? Don't you think - as an ostensible ally - that that's weird too?
I've been accidentally misogynistic too, because we are raised in a society that have given us propaganda to be misogynistic. It's worth it to self examine and apologize when that happens. No one is an angel. Grow up, be humble, and learn.
And your second sentence proves you didn't actually read my post:
What I said:
What you responded:
Plus, I specifically said I had no idea what to call the men's league now and you didn't tell me.
Let me know when you actually read my comment and respond to what I actually said and not what you pretended I said. No wonder you decide people are misogynists when you don't properly read their comments.
Your first sentence called me angry. I was responding that I don’t hate you or feel any other emotion to you (such as anger). Because you said I was angry and you were using the word hateful and appear to project a bit. So again, I feel :| about you. Me: 😐
You call them the men's NBA. That's pretty clear as we both have referenced it as such. Here I am saying it in my second comment to you:
Wow, it wasn't accidental misogyny then, huh? Like had you known, you would've just done it the same anyway. That's why you lack remorse and are trying to make this combative and paint me in a negative light - it's not about women's rights, it's about your ego and looking like you're so smart on these issues you're above criticism. Cool. I'm sorry I said you were doing it on accident? Like go back and read the comment chain - you're way out of line here if you actually care about women.
You show me a major sport news source that calls them "the men's NBA."
Because I can't find one.
This is sounding like you're just making something up in order to call someone a misogynist.
Well, the thing is, find me an article proposing a player move from one division to the other as you were doing, first.
You said Britney should join the NBA. She's already in the NBA. See how stupid that sounds?
You're doing a good job calling yourself out as a misogynist at this point.
No. I don't see how stupid it sounds since everyone, except maybe you, knew what I was talking about. The men's division is simply called the NBA everywhere I look. I can't help that it's both the entire league's name and just the name of the men's league as well.
Basically you're criticizing me for not using a term that no one, save maybe you, uses.
And what of high testosterone people who are completely testosterone insensitive? Those are the women who have Y chromosomes