631
We'll have a long memory as things get worse for working class Americans, minorities and women
(lemmy.world)
this post was submitted on 12 Oct 2024
631 points (73.6% liked)
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Not an American, but yikes does this have "Vote with us... Or else!" vibes.
That's not to say I support Trump, but I personally don't think this is the way to convince fence-sitters at all.
And it’s crazy how normal Americans think this two party system is. It’s like no matter how bad you think your guy is, you have to vote for them because the other side is worse. They always talk about the Labour Party and the Tories as if they think they’re carbon copies of the Democrats and the Republicans and project all their issues into them. They don’t seem to realise there’s like five or six other parties that get a considerable number of votes and have representation in Parliament.
It is normal in FPTP voting systems. If you are going to vote in a national election in a FPTP system. Especially one with our electoral college system. But aren't looking to explicitly throw your vote away. And you aren't okay with open fascists winning. When things are this close. Yeah there really is no conscionable choice. Unless you happen to live in a state so safe your vote truly could never matter. Like california. Which even that would be unwise. And is especially at a place for anyone from there to tell people elsewhere how to vote. Since they don't have the same privilege.
This is dishonest. You put all the onus of losing to trump on progressives and act powerless, when Kamala changing just one policy would guanatee progressive support in large numbers. We're not buying it. She's the one advocating a policy that has no place in a democratic party platform, and would be extreme and risky even for a far right republican platform.
Americans have no concept of a coalition.
you are 100% correct, and I'm glad to see you speaking up here as well.
these kind of posts are disgusting pablum and should be discouraged.
It's exactly the kind of thing that feels good to say, but doesn't convince anyone at all. Which is why Republicans keep winning despite ideas that should be extremely unpopular. They tie themselves to emotions about masculinity and patriotism and paint the other side as a source of disgust and fear. While Democrats look at people who support or don't seem eager to stop Trump and say angry things at them, which just makes them not want to help Demcorats.
The "I'm voting, are you?" argument featuring nutty alt-right Maga crazies is far better because it says "hey, you can help stop this nutjob."
But it's literally how it works in the USA with voting. It shouldn't, but it DOES.
I dont see that it is "working".
How else would you propose that the Overton Window shift to the left?
The American neoliberal experiment started in 1992 when Bill Clinton was president...
The prior (edit: Dem, obviously) president was Jimmy Fuckin Carter...
How do you think the Overton Window has moved since Carter?
We can't afford to keep going with a strategy that clearly hasn't worked for 30+ years...
I’m pretty damn sure that Bush came both before and after Clinton
I thought it was obvious we're just talking about Dems...
But I can edit that in explicitly
If I was on the fence this kind of menacing push would make me reaffirm myself into not voting Dems. For real.
What kind of shitty way of convince anyone is this?
I mean, yeah? Have you looked around? The or else is getting pretty bad.
Also I want to keep adding it's not just Trump, he's just a pawn. This is Republicans, not Trump. If row did anything hopefully it opened up some eyes to realize they have been on message for a long damn time. Dems should take note.
The really bad part is when you see how they react when people point out Kamala moving to the left would guarantee trump loses...
Moderates have been doing this since Bill Clinton 30+ years ago.
They always claim nothing else matters but beating Republicans, and use any excuse to move the party right. When voters complain the politician doesn't match the party, we get the above.
They'd rather trump win then progressives, so they point a gun at everyone's head and say it's our fault if they have to pull the trigger.
Hell, in 08 with Obama they did pull the trigger. PUMA movement had them voting R instead of Obama. It's just despite controlling the party, they are a statistically insignificant amount of voters.
A few months ago all these people called us trump supporters for making the (still true) statement that Kamala has a better chance than Biden, and they were all saying Kamala would be a terrible candidate and only Biden can win.
They'll say anything in the moment with no regards to what just came out of their mouths.
Entirely agree. The people responsible for trump getting votes are the people voting for Trump.
Tactical voting is bullshit of the highest order and the undeniable sign of a fucked up political and voting system, not some sort of political astuteness.
If your voting system can't allow people to express their true choice, you should throw it away. Yes, that means the majority of voting systems around the world are bad and need to be changed. Getting people to recognise that this is even an issue in the first place is a huge battle.
Yes first past the post elections are fucked, but that’s still the system we have and the one you have to operate under. If you refuse to vote against hitler because you don’t like the voting system, you still refuse to vote against hitler.
Only one party has implemented ranked choice while the other has fought against it. That would be a great first start.
That's not quite the case. Ranked choice voting is resisted by whichever party has a comfortable majority in any given state where it is on the ballot. That's why it failed when it was on the ballot in Massachusetts during the previous presidential election, because it is a reliably blue state and ranked choice voting would only serve to disrupt that status quo.
I still voted in favor of it, but that's how it went down.
Can confirm, these awful false-equivalences have only further convinced me that liberals will never lift a finger to help anyone.
I’m not speaking from a place of facts, but I think the sentiment is if you don’t purposefully vote for someone within the two-party system that isn’t Trump, your vote will mathematically be a negative towards votes against Trump.
Not voting/third-party vote = one less vote against Trump/more possible votes for Trump
Mmm I’m sorry to tell you that you are wrong
The "or else" is you will be remembered as the Trump supporter that you are. That's not a threat.
You're not s Trump supporter if you don't support Trump
This is the trolley problem. There are people on the track who will die if you don't pull the lever. You stand and watch them die and declare, "I didn't put the train on the track. It's not my fault."
You forgot some parts. The bystander being asked to pull the lever will enable a genocide by pulling it, and those rich people stuck on the tracks could pull a policy lever and save themselves but they refused to because someone offered them a bribe not to.
The rich people stuck on the track just want to play the vicitm when they also set up the whole scenario in the fist place by doing crazy stuff. So they crybully about it, and pretend to be victims of the scenario that they themselves created. I'd suggest they save themselves and stop doing stupid stuff. If we save them, how will they learn?
That statement shows you are a Trump supporter just like the meme claimed. Trump has committed to the extermination of Palestinians and even said he would deny any refugees.
The Trolley problem has 1 person on one track and 5 on the other. There's a huge difference between Trump and Harris's statements on Palestine.
Harris can pull her own lever anytime she wants, and that lever is to stop the weapons shipments. She then earns enough progressive votes to win, saving everyone, instead of looking for all the Dem voters to save her while she supports a far right war thats costing her a lot of votes.
How you get that I am a trump supporter from what I said is hard to imagine. But I think you're just making it up to have something .. anything, to attack with.
You need to work on your metaphors, and your basic reasoning, and your rhetoric. If you are going to call people names at least make it interesting and consistent with reality. Otherwise you are just boring.
Harris isn't President!
Trump has called for the extermination of all of Palestine.
Doesnt matter. She's in charge of a campaign that we arent sure is winning. If she wants to make sure she will win, drop the weapons shipments and she gets progressive votes. Progressives want to vote for her.
It doesn't matter that she is legally unable to stop weapon shipments? Wtf?
How about I blame you for Palestine? Why haven't you stopped weapon shipments? It's your fault. You should be fired from your job for your genocidal inaction. It doesn't matter that your job can't do anything about it. It's your fault.
But more seriously, you want Palestine exterminated. Because that's the alternative. Trump has said he wants Israel to finish the job and will not give refuge to any Palestinians attempting to flee extermination. You want that.
You lack imagination because you are comortable doing what you are told, which in your case is probably best. I want to pressure Kamala to change her stance because she is desperate to win. If she is backed into a corner enough, I bet she changes it. She's already scraping the bottom of the barrel sucking up to gun nuts.
I think Trump is not just a worse candidate but a danger to America. You would let him win and blame the victims.
Nope, you cannot blame someone for something they didn't do
I live in California, if I don't vote it doesn't support Trump at all, the electoral votes go onto the Democrats if I vote for them, vote for Trump, or write in SpongeBob, it doesn't fucking matter
If you live in a swing state then your point stands better, but I'm so fucking sick of this authoritarian "idgaf where you are if you didn't vote exactly how I want you to then I'll be a real pissy bitch about it" shit because I don't like to vote in line with authoritarians
There was no retribution in the meme. Only that the person would be remembered for their lack of action.
What would you think of me if I saw your house catch fire and instead of calling the fire department, I watched your pets burn to death?
Cute that you want to pretend that "well remember this false thing about you" isn't an implicit threat
Not a very good hypothetical as you can actually do something there
Its cute how hard youll grasp for a reason to justify the authoritarianism though. Gross, but cute
It's not false. Through inaction they allowed something bad to happen. You want to have it both ways.
As if you can't vote?
Even if you are in solid Blue State, an overwhelming majority against Trump will send a message to the next fascist attempt.
Again, only if they live somewhere their vote matters. Very simple idea you're having a shockingly hard time grasping.
If. Their. Vote. Matters.
Lol, no it doesn't. Nice attempt at a goalpost move, btw, but it won't work
If you are in a Blue State, it's only Blue because others voted.
Your attitude is, "Someone else will call the fire department. I'll stand here and watch the house burn."
Duh? That means the democrats don't need my vote to win here, because others are doing so
That means I can't possibly be responsible for their loss if I don't vote for them as they didn't need me. So that would mean if they lose this state then they've managed to lose the people who were already going to support them, yeah?
My attitude is "someone else has already called the fire department, were good"
I can freely vote however I want safe in the knowledge that the registered Democrats will do their blue no matter who shit and keep the state blue. If they don't, that's objectively not my fault, and would be absolutely wild to see CA do THIS of all elections
This all said to back up my original point that saying someone who doesn't vote for Harris is de facto a Trump supporter is stupid and likely untrue
But someone hasn't called the fire department. The election is in November. You are going to stand around watching the fire burn assuming your neighbors will call for you.
Sure, let's just pretend we don't have numbers and historic data on how the state will vote, that makes sense! You keep ignoring the whole "not in a swing state" thing because if you don't you know your points are shit
"Sure, let's just pretend we don't have numbers and historic data on how the state will vote"
Translation:
"My neighbors have always called the firefighters in the past so I'll do nothing but watch the fire burn."
Then why are you arguing about not needing to vote!
Blaming firefighters for not being able to stop a fire when you won't even call them. That's a new one. I bet you blame the kids Trump raped on Epstein's Island for not fighting back too.
Christ you can't even keep your own analogy straight, I told you it was bad from the start and you keep going
Because I dislike the authoritarian bullshit and bad arguments you've been giving, and I think watching you fail is funny
Yes, I understand the sentiment. But the tone is off. Sounding like fascists or Marxist Leninist should be the last thing anyone should be aiming for.
More people should be aiming to be Marxists, don't know why you're trying to draw an equivalence between Marxists and fascists that doesn't exist. You should read Blackshirts and Reds, Communists and fascists have served entirely different classes, the fascists served the bourgeoisie while the Marxists served the proletariat, and funded anti-colonial and anti-Imperialist movements the world over (including funding the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine).