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You're assuming those relationships survived the 2020 election. For many, myself included, they didn't.
I was willing to overlook 2016, but after 4 years of horror culminating in a (failed) coup, and those people still supporting him, I just cut them out of my life.
Supporting Trump is no different than supporting Hitler. I find it very easy to cut nazis out of my life.
One side wants me dead, there are no worthy discussions to be had.
That's understandable. It's also, in microcosm, the reason your country is so divided. If you want to continue living in a democracy, you're all going to have to talk - and listen - to each other.
I don't disagree at all. However, that is a whole lot easier said than done when one side is so far gone in an alternate reality of lies and hate.
We're going to need a mass cult de-programming or something. I just don't know how we come back from where we are.
The usual way to fix these things is civil war. Don't worry, you won't have to start it, the racists and fascists will do it for you. And then they'll get annihilated, like always.
This is because they may be loud, aggressive, greedy, hateful and boastful which all help them start and ramp up wars. But they are also stupid, cowardly, irrational, week minded and a minority, which make them loose these wars.
What you think about them, they think about you. They're not evil, they're not idiots. If they lived nextdoor you would probably find each other very pleasant.
It looks pretty simple from where I'm standing. You talk to them. You listen to them. You find things you agree on, beginning with the smaller things. They're not automatons, they're people.
Update. This avalanche of supposedly tolerant progressives who are openly against the idea of talking to their fellow citizens proves to me that America deserves everything it gets. Good luck.
Naw, maybe you're not queer and not being called a pedo, or followed or having your job threatened by a former president. It's not my job to raise an adult right and free of hate, I have one child. I don't need to burn myself out giving Republicans 3rd and 4th chances to be decent people.
"What you think about them, they think about you"
No, this is precisely the issue. Any leftist worth their salt can't fucking stand conservatives and YET we will still protect their basic human rights and accept them into a collective society.
Conservatives on the other hand are perpetrating violence every single day against leftists and minorities they LOUDLY do not accept into a collective society. They deny abortions for women who are on the verge of death, they advocate for draconian health care policy that massively raises the suicide rates of trans kids because they hate trans kids and they believe deep down in their racism with an unshakable fervor that makes their meager spiritual practice of christianity look sad and pathetic in comparison.
It is far past the point of having a debate with rightwing conservatives, what is left is to intimidate them into shutting up, drowning out their voices and laughing at their tiny hateful visions of the universe.
The social fabric of the US is being ripped apart by conservative white men because they can't handle how scary using pronouns is and frankly the solution is to activate everybody else, not humor these people yet again with another discussion they are going to approach in a fundamentally disengenous way.
Hard disagree.
Your first sentence, yes I agree. The next two, not so much. In my town in 2020 we had groups of these chuds roaming around downtown, armed, hunting for "antifa," meaning anyone wearing black or looking slightly punk. Some of them really do want to shoot us with impunity.
But yeah, it's also my parents, who probably wouldn't turn me into the gestapo, but the cognitive dissonance where they simultaneously believe I'm their family but I'm also "the enemy within" doesn't seem sustainable. At some point, it's got to be one or the other. Getting them to agree on small things hasn't changed their overall loyalty to the party, their disdain for Dems, or our relationship.
True, but irrelevant.
Hard disagree - they have to be at least one of those things to be MAGA, usually both.
Hah! They DO live next door and I most certainly don't find them pleasant.
Let’s assume that they are not bad people. In order to bring them to sanity, it would take an ungodly amount of pressure, and they would have to have no connections back to the cult. If there is even a single connection all the effort would be for naught.
They are not where they are, due to logic or empathy, so you can’t use logic or empathy to argue them out of it. I lost my entire extended family over this.
You are dead wrong. I was raised in a deeply conservative lifestyle with conservative friends, family, and neighbors. I retired from a career steeped in conservatives, working shoulder to shoulder with them daily. The vast majority of the people I've known through the years have been conservative. I've been talking and listening this whole fucking time, trying to move them toward reason, naively thinking they would someday grow emotionally, become empathetic or introspective. A conservative is simply not able to experience these things. Empathy and introspection are not conservative traits.
Conservatives will not budge an inch. The more one attempts to reason with them, the more angry they become. If you aren't careful, you will end up on their enemies list just for being a suspected non-conservative.
I appreciate your friendly approach, as it seems to come from a place of kindness and empathy, but that capacity for empathy does not exist in a conservative.
Never in history has fascism been cured by just talking and listening. Historically, the cure for fascism is only delivered by force.
No, they're both. They know they're spreading hate, and they find it funny.
I know what you mean, when I put to nazis and bigots, through various civil discourses, the most agreeable and cordial justifications for their systematic capture and extermination or deportation, to my great surprise, they never acquiesce to any form of intellectual exchange, regarding the legitimate concerns I raise.
Its the most bizzare thing because, just previously, they'd been more than happy to declare thus and so the most polite and reasonable argumentations supporting the very same thing for other people. More so, they many were lamenting how unfair it was for them to be denied the opportunity to pontificate on such matters, just a short time previously.
I'm sure you can only imagine my surprise when they did this, after their claims of wanting nothing more than "civil discourse."
Yankee here, and fully agree with what you said. Unfortunately, empathy seems to be an increasingly lost art in this country and it only seems to get worse as each side continues to dehumanized the other.
No. It's called the Paradox of Tolerance. "Discussing" rationally with the intolerant only serves to justify their position in their own eyes and thereby embolden them.
In other words, putting up with them simply gives them more ink
Turning the other cheek only works if the person doing the slapping has a sense of shame. Trump and his ilk have long since proven they have none.
I don't remember who said it first, but I've linked it before: there's no paradox if tolerance is a social contact rather than an ethic. If someone breaks the terms of the contact, then the other party is not bound by it any more.
Yeah. Although what if half of the country is intolerant? What then? Divide the country into two?
Then you remove the nazis from your country by any means necessary. I’m sick of people talking about tolerance in the face of genocidal bigotry.
Calm your pits Beka.
Nobody should be advocating for a Final Solution.
People were this divided over FDR. My next door neighbor only ever referred to FDR as that “gimpy legged sonofabitch”. This was in the 1970’s.
If the good guys win the election, we can start to heal this if we choose to. But only if we take the complaints of everyone seriously. Ignoring the needs and political power of white men is what got us into this cluster.
If the bad guys win, start looking for allies.
What complaint am I supposed to be taking seriously exactly?
The one where trans people are invading women’s spaces to rape them?
The one where immigrants are all violent criminals who eat dogs?
Or maybe the one where women are getting abortions instead of using birth control and should not be allowed to make decisions about their own bodies?
I am a white man. I don’t care about the complaints of white men that boil down to “I’ve been on top for so long that any attempt at equity feels like a threat to that position”.
If Trump said:
We would know what he meant. You are saying the same genocidal thing.
You have ignored my question about which part of the right-wing rhetoric we should be taking seriously.
If someone threatens my family and friends with violence and death, they get no sympathy from me. The difference is I am just a rando on the internet. Trump is potentially the 47th president of the United States. Trump has said terrible things that allude to violent insurrections and the killing of innocent people.
But you’re right, we should take his points seriously and incorporate them into society going forward.
Get fucked.
Most of them are hurting in one way or another. This particular round it’s mostly the financial, mental and emotional aftershocks of the pandemic amplified by greedy people coming up with new and inventive ways to take money from the poor and give it to the rich.
But you need to first hear and understand their pain to have any hope of getting through to them.
They’ve been told over and over through misinformation that immigrants, people with disabilities, loose/secular/independent women, people of different religious beliefs, skin colour, whatever else are the reason for their suffering, and that they should be afraid of them. That initial pain is channeled from fear to anger to hate to dehumanization to… “final solutions”.
They want Trump in because they’ve been convinced that he’s powerful and “Trump will fix it.” ‘It’ being whatever the pain is.
The reality is of course a much different story of basically just greedy people distracting them while they steal their lunch money, and narcissists that will do anything to gain ever more power.
But if you want to unprogram someone from that you need to hear their pain. What was that thing that was used by the greedy and narcissistic to channel into hate.
It’s mostly hurt/hurting people who are voting for Trump. To turn them around you need to hear their pain.
I'm not sure it's half, maybe half of the voting population but that's usually only around 40-60% of the total population.
We do not tolerate intolerance.
In all seriousness, how does one listen to and communicate with people who have slid so far down a misinformation hole to a place where science is fake, every expert who disagrees is part of a global conspiracy, and the only people they listen to literally can't stop lying?>
I still talk to and value my mother, and believe she is a good person, but she's fallen prey to insidious propaganda and believes that Trump is just a flawed tool for God and the Republican platform is the only way to save the world from the forces of evil.
As an aside, my favorite conspiracy theory was how all the governments of the world were collaborating on the COVID lockdowns so they could control the people and take power. The governments capable of national lockdowns could take power. 🤦🏼♂️
If you want democracy to survive you should be intolerant of intolerance.
I'm not listening to Nazis so fuck off.
I don't need to talk to those who are openly racist. I'm not talking about some political double speak. I have trump voters in my community that openly use racist slurs in their discussion of immigrants, and minorities in town.
You are the company you keep, and those folks aren't part of my life. Trump was just the vector to illuminate their position that was previously kept in hushed tones behind doors.
Yes, it's our fault that fear-addicted racists have refused to listen to reason for decades and particularly during the last eight years when an obviously unfit clown was committing scandal after scandal. We should be inviting cultists who refuse to listen to us back into our lives and calmly discuss why it is good for the country to be a Christofascist dictatorship.
It's hard to listen to the illiterate.
I get where you're coming from. Unfortunately, it's not really that simple. Sometimes a relationship is so toxic that there's no way to restore the basic trust that's needed in order to function as a unit. This is no different. Pre-Trump, we might have been able to talk and salvage things; at this point, they're just as broken as a relationship full of cheating and domestic abuse. My fear is that the only way forward is breakup (ie civil war) or some other equally deep trauma.