this post was submitted on 09 Dec 2024
66 points (100.0% liked)

GenZedong

4322 readers
33 users here now

This is a Dengist community in favor of Bashar al-Assad with no information that can lead to the arrest of Hillary Clinton, our fellow liberal and queen. This community is not ironic. We are Marxists-Leninists.

This community is for posts about Marxism and geopolitics (including shitposts to some extent). Serious posts can be posted here or in /c/GenZhou. Reactionary or ultra-leftist cringe posts belong in /c/shitreactionariessay or /c/shitultrassay respectively.

We have a Matrix homeserver and a Matrix space. See this thread for more information. If you believe the server may be down, check the status on status.elara.ws.

Rules:

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
66
General Discussion Thread - Juche 113, Week 50 - Syrian Solidarity Edition (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
133 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

Welcome again to everybody. Make yourself at home. In the time-honoured tradition of our group, here is the weekly discussion thread.

On Sunday last week, Damascus fell to Salafi terrorists and other imperialist-aligned forces. Regardless of the flaws of the ousted government, this is a horrible situation for the Syrian proletariat as well as for the people of Palestine, Lebanon and others. We can only hope for the perseverance of the Syrian workers and the remaining anti-colonial resistance.

☭ Matrix homeserver and space
 ☭ Theory reading group on hiatus, will move to Lemmygrad next year
☭ Find theory on ProleWiki, marxists.org, Anna's Archive, libgen

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 week ago (1 children)

One could say that Syria had lost them for good once they lost them to ISIS.

One could, but it would be incorrect. Most occupations are eventually defeated.

IF, on the other hand Syrian government managed to retake all of its territory and the only holdout was Rojava, I’d be more willing to agree with your viewpoint. But as it stands, Rojava wasn’t even the nearest immediate threat to the Syrian govt.

I’m gonna sound like a broken record, but the fact that SAA and SDF cooperated against a common enemy (Turkey, FSA, SNA, ISIS) and “Damascus” and Rojava were in talks to find a way to live in the same country, Syria, together, tells me that the differences between Rojava and the Syrian govt. weren’t so great as to not be overcome.

I don't think anyone here would claim that Rojava was the nearest immediate threat to the Syrian government, or that they could never reach a compromise with the Syrian government. This does not change the fact that Rojava did collaborate with US imperialism for many years, and it's by no means socialist.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

One could, but it would be incorrect. Most occupations are eventually defeated.

Rojava Kurds are native to Syria, they aren't occupiers. They are a people fighting for self-determination.

This does not change the fact that Rojava did collaborate with US imperialism for many years,

So did Russia.

and it’s by no means socialist.

What metric are you using?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Rojava Kurds are native to Syria, they aren’t occupiers

"One could say that Syria had lost them for good once they lost them to ISIS." ISIS, not Rojava.

So did Russia.

Yes, and it did not deserve critical support at that time.

What metric are you using?

It is not ruled by a communist party and its economy is capitalist. Having some workers' cooperatives does not make a country socialist.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 week ago (2 children)

“One could say that Syria had lost them for good once they lost them to ISIS.” ISIS, not Rojava.

My bad. But Rojava never meant to secede from Syria. They are still called DAANES today, administration of north-east Syria. Yes, they took the oil fields to fund themselves. But without any other source of funding (their main industry is agriculture) it was an attempt to secure a source other than US aid. We wouldn't fault a person stealing to feed themselves, in my mind it's the same thing.

As I mentioned in another comment, SDF could have done "whatever they wanted" in the areas they control, but they decided to build an egalitarian, democratic society that respected minorities and religions. What more can you ask for under the circumstances? Yet they did much more than that.

If a little "thievery" is the price for that, if I were in their shoes I would have done the same. Stalin was a bank robber, for example. I'm sure he stole from some people who were nice.

Yes, and it did not deserve critical support at that time.

Right. But we can see that conditions can change. Also, I think there are degrees of cooperation. You cannot say that Rojava is the same as Israel, for example, when it comes to cooperating with the US.

There are only about 1000 US troops left in Syria. US has no intent on fighting Turkey or their militias, they didn't help SDF hold Manbij. It's unlikely the US would help the SDF fight against HTS if they decide they want the oil fields DAANES controls.

But let me ask you this, what would have to happen or what kind of conditions would there have to be for you to think that Rojava is a socialist project worth studying? There's no Syrian government for SDF to give back the oil to.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago (1 children)

We wouldn’t fault a person stealing to feed themselves

I would fault a person repeatedly stealing essential things required for another person to survive

egalitarian, democratic society that respected minorities and religions

In what sense are they egalitarian and democratic? A capitalist country, even if it's relatively decentralized, is neither egalitarian nor democratic in any meaningful sense

But we can see that conditions can change

Like I said, it may be worthy of critical support in the future, but certainly not now

what would have to happen or what kind of conditions would there have to be for you to think that Rojava is a socialist project worth studying

The first step would be to have a socialist, anti-imperialist government

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

The Kurds of Rojava have a fourth way: to build a “people’s economy”. The 42nd article of the Social Contract says: “The economical system in the provinces shall be directed at providing general welfare and in particular granting funding to science and technology. It shall be aimed at guaranteeing the daily needs of people and to ensure a dignified life. Monopoly is prohibited by law. Labour rights and sustainable development are guaranteed.” [37].

Dr Ahmad Yousef defines the core of the new economy with the following words: “Historical facts assure us that the economy becomes a science to meet the needs of communities, it isn’t a science to maximise wealth for specific groups. From this definition we must know that the economy would not be economical if it is not social, in other words, any economy that is not aimed at achieving the social welfare of all members of society cannot be defined as economy, but is a sophisticated mechanism for financial, intellectual and cultural looting. This definition of economics is the theoretical basis for the development of economic and social policies in Rojava.” [38].

He continues: “The market is a main part of social economy, but the use-value must be greater than the exchange-value, and there is no stock market” [39].

...

The method in Rojava is not so much against private property, but rather has the goal of putting private property in the service of all the peoples who live in Rojava, for them to use. Naturally we’re only at the beginning. But nonetheless, even if only in small ways, we’re seeing some positive developments. We must be clear that we don’t need an economic revival and development which has no clear goal for the community […] It shouldn’t be a capitalist system, one without respect for the environment; nor should it be a system which continues class contradictions and in the end only serves capital. It should be a participatory model, based on natural resources and a strong infrastructure.

...

A people’s economy should thus be based on redistribution and oriented towards needs, rather than on being oriented exclusively towards accumulation and the theft of surplus value and surplus product.

From a lengthy article (from 2016) analysing the economy of Rojava. written by a Russian Marxist (that's how he is described, don't know for certain).

Sure it's not full communism, but it's obvious they don't want to be capitalist.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Rhetoric is easy, but in practice, Rojava has no proper state, no vanguard party. Not wanting to be capitalist doesn't really matter if their economy is de facto capitalist, even if the welfare net is larger than in most capitalist countries or there's more local democratic participation.

It feels like I'm repeating myself at this point so I'm going to end it here

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

OK. I will just say that one must examine Rojava as it exists in its current conditions, and not compare it to some ideal.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yes, they took the oil fields to fund themselves. But without any other source of funding (their main industry is agriculture) it was an attempt to secure a source other than US aid. We wouldn’t fault a person stealing to feed themselves, in my mind it’s the same thing.

Can you connect the dots ffs.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago

I'm stupid, connect them for me.