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Nothing good in human history has ever come from conservatism. Nothing at all.
You mean a backwards looking ideology doesn’t address the needs of society today and in the future?
Even calling it "backwards" is falling for conservatives' euphemistic lie. Conservatism has never really been about "upholding tradition" or any of the bullshit they claim; it's only ever been about authoritarianism and enforcing hierarchy. If it happens to jive with a "tradition" it is only because said tradition is authoritarian and hierarchical.
It's never really been conservatism, it's regressivism. They want Feudalism because they think they can be king.
"Conservatism" has always been a euphemism for regressivism. There is no difference between the two concepts, and never was.
To say that "it's never really been conservatism," as if there's a distinction to be made between the abhorrent ideology of conservatives like Trump and some kind of other non-abhorrent version of conservatism, is to be an apologist for it. It's understandable that you'd make such an error since conservatives spend a lot of effort trying to gaslight the public and launder the reputation of conservative ideology, but nevertheless, the notion that there exists (or has ever existed) some idealized form of conservatism that isn't thoroughly regressive garbage remains a fallacy.
Yep. There is value in looking at how things are currently done and have been done in the past. There's no need to reinvent the wheel, and there may have been good reason for some decisions in the past. We had a safety system at work that had some superfluous quirks, but when we went to remove them, we learned the customer had specifically requested it to be that way. On the other end, we learned that we had some poorly designed equipment because we had specifically requested it in the past.
None of that though is what modern conservatives do.
FTFY. Half the point I was trying to make is that the notion about conservatism being about acting with caution isn't just a lie now, but has always been one. Conservatives have been falsely claiming this ever since the 16^th^ Century!
Fair, yeah. We need a different term for the ideology to separate it from conservatism.
No we don't.
I think I still haven't quite made myself understood: The version of conservatism centered around perpetuating social hierarchy is conservatism. We don't need another name for it because it's the only kind of conservatism there ever was. The "good" kind of conservatism that's about caution or moderation that folks keep trying to contrast it with also doesn't need a name because it's not actually a thing that exists as a distinct ideology. (I suppose if you really insist on labeling it, you could call it "not-conservatism.")
Everybody who claims to be the "good" kind of conservative is either (a) a trash conservative who is lying about their motivations, or (b) a confused non-conservative.
What's the name of the distinct ideology? I completely agree though.
The "It used to be fine so it still should be" ideology
When in fact it wasn't fine, it's just a bigots fever dream
Which is exactly what those peddling the lie want. So it was "fine" by their books, because they got to abuse people.
Putin worked hard to promote conservative agendas in UK, U.S. and France, to degrade those countries. It worked in all but France.
Agreed! France really impresses me. The people there are strong-willed and don't put up with bullshit. I found myself cheering for them all year this year.
I am glad to live in this country but there is still a lot of work to be done. I hope that the centre-right's unification with the alt right will be a wake up call to all voters
Yet... Far right is on the highway to the next election
Ive been seeing a surge of conservative comments on lemmy. Im glad that comments such as this one still gets highly upvoted
National parks maybe
I think you are confusing conservationism with conservatism. These two topics are completely unrelated. The very first sentence on the wikipedia page for conservationism expresses that.
If you were referring to presidents who most influenced the proliferation of national parks, I think Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt would be the two that are most responsible. As you probably know, both were famously progressive (the opposite ideology of conservatism).
I think you didn't read much of the page you shared. Conservationism ~ ecology is a 20th modern movement, the origin of it is conservatism of natural resources for industrial use, not preservation of nature. So yes, the origin of conservationism is related to conservatism, the notions evolved to be less related today.
You are being really weird right now. Re-defining words is a common behavior for people who are desperate to create a fictional narrative. In this case, I think you are so worried about looking foolish that you will say anything.
The very first line of the wikipedia entry for conservationism says:
Just stop.
I'd rather continue because I know the few people who read this thread without being too influenced by the massive downvoting may learn something, and maybe you will too.
Here are the relative quotes you may have missed
Etc.
You've worked hard to defend your position that something good has come from political conservatism. And still, you've provided no evidence that conservatism has ever resulted in anything good.
Racists can find value in progressive policies. In your example, racists found value in the policies of the leader of the progressive party. That does not make those policies conservative policies. They are just progressive policies that some conservatives (or racists) find some value in.
Conservatives neither need nor want your defense of them. They are proud that their policies are designed to harm and deceive people. Harm is their platform. It always has been. Why are you doing such intense gymnastics to defend conservatism? What good can come from your defense of the indefensible?
You are either misunderstanding my intentions or using a straw man argument, I am not defending conservatism. I wanted to point out at that national park may be something that is considered good today, and that, surprisingly, it started with conservative ideas (industry, capital preservation, racism). Most people today probably don't know about that because they associate national park with environmentalism, which is rather a left progressive idea. That's why I wrote this initial comment.
You are using the progressive policies of a progressive leader of his time as an example of something good that came from conservatism. It's not a good example to support your position that something good has come from conservatism.
Progressive leaders created the national park institutions, but not the concept of conserving natural space, which was initially done to conserve natural resources for human use (sometimes with capitalists reasons or racist reasons), not to preserver nature as we know them today. See the wikipedia page for more details about that.
👍
I mean, thanks for the good faith effort I guess, but you're still objectively incorrect as a matter of the historical record.
You would have done better to single out the Interstate freeway system as "conservative," since it was created under Eisenhower. But even that is a weak example since it wasn't opposed by liberals at all.
Let me know what you think I wrote that was objectively incorrect. I get the feeling most people reading this thread and following the downvotes think I'm claiming the USA national parks were solely created by conservative, which I didn't. I wanted to point at that conservative ideas was what started what later gave birth to national parks as we know them, and not only in the USA. Maybe some national parks locations we know today wouldn't exist if it hadn't been protected for conservative reasons initially. Note also, that I used the word maybe, from the beginning, because it's certainly not the only reason they exist today. I admit guilt to use a short, surprising sentence without further explanation to raise questions, but it seems almost all reactions got negatively oriented from there because of how touchy politics is here, especially if it doesn't follow the left main stream. This saddens me because with the default ranking system, this interesting thread got buried, and fewer people could read it.
I appreciate your persistence in explanation, your point became more clear.
Right on. Just chiming in to say that everything you say is totally congruent with what I learned about the conservation movement in my environmental studies courses. I get plenty of reminders geographically, too, since I live not too far from the USDA Forest Products Laboratory on Gifford Pinchot Drive, as well a Muir Knoll, named for preservationist John Muir. The conservationists and the preservationists were ideological rivals—a store of resources for judicious human use vs. nature's value pro se—and the modern environmental movement is much more aligned with the preservationists. The conservationist movement was more c*nservative, relatively.
I guess sometimes on social media, you run across a Two Minutes Hate gathering, where nuance is not welcome, without being able to realize it in advance.
Yeah that's what is described in the wikipedia article but people here read conservatism, they see red and can't discuss anymore.
Teddy Roosevelt was a progressive, part of the "progressive era" in US political history. There isn't a way to spin it such that he can accurately be called a conservative. The conservative position on national parks, at least in the west, would be that they should remain open for resource extraction. We see this at play with the recent bullshit surrounding the Bears Ears National Monument de-designation under Trump and the ongoing effort to allow drilling in the Artic National Wildlife Refuge.
You are simply objectively incorrect.
More straw man arguments, I never called him a conservative.
Yes, that's the point, but also consider that this how it started, before progressive politics made it about nature preservation. Read the Wikipedia page or the quote I have taken have of it if you're feeling lazy.
You are simply not trying to understand what I mean because you'd rather confirm the bias you have formed about me when you've seen the downvotes on my comments.
Horseshit. I've spent literally decades reporting on land-use issues in the rural west. That, together with the reintroduction of wolves in the intermountain west, is kind of my life's work as a journalist thus far.
I actually don't even know where to start with how wrong you are.
So the wikipedia page about the history of conservationism is completely wrong? I'm not claiming anything more than what's on it. Maybe it's important for your job to read this page.