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Firstly, positive to see more criticism and friction between Israel and US officials, and that resulting in unilateral action against extreme elements of Israeli society. I recognize that international and domestic politics are hard to balance, and its campaign season.
But holy shit this solves nothing. “It’s a start” certainly, but there shouldn’t even be settlers. Oslo II very clearly, with lines on the map agreed to by both sides, set out that the West Bank and Gaza is Palestinian, for Palestinians.
At what point does the US alliance with Israel cost us more than it’s worth, especially when this unlimited support is directly harmful to other regional allies like Jordan or Egypt?
I'm sure that behind closed.doors, we are rapidly approaching that point.
It's optics, which are important. You can't demand the US unilaterally solve Middle East peace or nothing matters.
And you (not literally you I just mean people) can't get mad at "hugging Netanyahu" which also did literally nothing in reality, while dismissing this. They're both optics. Early after Oct 7th Biden wanted to show compassion for Israel after the attack, now he's showing that the US is not on the same page as Israeli leadership. Probably part of a top-level pressure campaign, starting small with private critiques, then public critiques, then actually sanctioning some extreme people, maybe next he threatens to withhold aid, we don't know.
You can still argue the process isn't going fast enough and you want whatever your proposed solution is, but it's not 'nothing' for the same reasons you mentioned in your first paragraphs.
When the house is burning down you don't start with the garden hose and wait for the structure to be fully engulfed before allowing the fire department to use just one hose. That's a fine approach for normal diplomatic problems. But the genocide response playbook is very clear. You need to act swiftly and decisively to protect the victim group. They will be dead by the time normal politics ramps up to the levels required to save them.
If the Zionists on here are anything to go by. They don't recognize Oslo 2 and they just really hope nobody brings it up.
Interesting how you used Oslo II and not the failed camp David summit options that Israel tried. Palestine is in an even worse state than it was back then yet still fighting for the same thing.
You also bring this up without any thought of the Abraham accords which is more interesting. Israel might be digging it's own grave but the US needs them as they are a strategic ally deep in the heart of the OIC block. So people shouldn't expect the US's involvement other than support.
Oslo II was signed by the PLO on behalf of the Palestinian people. It’s the most recent document that both sides agreed to, dealing with partition of land. Israel has failed to do what it agreed to and slowly cede back the West Bank entirely - they have done the opposite and taken more land.
Camp David accords was between Israel and Egypt, decided without the Palestinians, and condemned by the UN and rejected as illegitimate by;
And yes the rapprochement with the Saudis is a big development towards normalization and stability for Israel, and cements alliances between the region - but Israeli realpolitik is fucking up the juggling act US diplomats are doing.
Sorry I forgot the part where PLO leader Arafat refusing any concessions in camp David was Egypt's doing. I forgot that the reason the second intifada and Hamas uprising was because of pesky old Egypt not negotiating for them or that the UN called it illegitimate. The part where the entire world was puzzled why Palestinians refused any offers that apparently Egypt was doing, very weird.
Arafat wasn’t a part of the Camp David Accords in 1978, you’re confused with the 2000 Camp David summit.
That 2000 summit fell apart because of a loggerhead over what is fundamental to both sides, and an Israeli negotiation redline hypocrisy - right of return. Arafat may well have been an Arab nationalist who wanted the three no’s forever and wouldn’t sign anything - but then why engage and negotiate at all? Concessions were offered from on both sides but Israel refused to permit those in the diaspora to return to their land, all while funding birthright trips for foreign Jews.
Egypt has a viable country and government, and got the canal back and A SHITLOAD of land Israel had taken. Palestinians were being offered what the US and Canada gave the First Nations after we broke treaty after treaty.
Ah shit you got me i got the words swapped. I meant the summit being the last attempt of a treaty that Arafat didnt even bother trying to negotiate. What i was trying to say was there was an attempt for land swaps and a passage way for peace but the PLO captain shat his pants and decided he wants murder on his hands. Oslo II might have been the last official treaty but there have been attempts to get peace and a 2 state solution since then.
The only reason Egypt even has the Sinai back is because Israel offered it back as a sign of peace after it was captured. Palestinians have nothing to offer. Not even the Egyptians want them back in the Sinai now.
@[email protected] has addressed this point very nicely in a post which unfortunately is no longer readable. So allow me to quote it because it shows very well how insulting, I'd say on purpose, the whole proposal of Israel was. They just wanted something so outlandish that it was refused outright so they can later say "See we tried but they don't want to talk!!!!!!". The whole tactic is very similar to Austria-Hungary's ultimatum to Serbia which they specifically worded so Serbia had to refuse it or stop being a sovereign state.
Anyway here's the post of @[email protected]. It's a bit long but definitely worth the read to get a better understanding of this very complex situation:
Thank you for this comprehensive explanation of the situation.
You're welcome. It was quite eye opening to me when I read it first, so it was worth saving.
I absolutely don't think any of these propositions are outlandish or even remotely insulting. This was a hindsight problem. Given that we are now 20 years into the future, Palestinians would be stupid to not agree to these if it were proposed again. But that won't happen because of a multitude of reasons.
Again, all I was trying to say was that Oslo II was not the last time there was an attempt at a 2 state solution. Saying "take back to green line" is kind of dumb to me because that's no longer in scope of a solution.
"Oh man israel committed so many war crimes since they last gave the Palestinians a bad deal, that the previous deal looks amazing to the war crimes Palestinians are suffering from right now.
But instead of offering the Palestinians the previous deal israel will offer one that is far worse than the situation Palestinians are in right now".
You described the history of israel good job.
Yeah why not, that's how the world works. It's not like Palestinians are making their case any better. There was relative peace and stability in he area for 20ish years until Hamas decided to shit their pants. Why would Israel want to give them any benefit of the doubt when they are proving themselves to not be trustworthy?
When you look at it from the perspective of the Palestinians who want their own country with the sovereignty this entails, it absolutely is insulting. With those limitations they would be little more than a puppet state of Israel. Not only another state but one they have serious grievances and a bloody history with. There's no way they could accept this. Israel knew this very well!
I was ready to make a post on how the blockade didnt exist until Hamas took over and why but I would be interested to hear it from a Palestinian perspective.
I saw last night that Biden might be considering labelling them as sovereign. I feel like this would be a giant double edged sword for them. If Palestine becomes it's own nation and Israel was forced to open the blockade that would be great for Palestinians. If Hamas still decided to attack Israel at this point then the IDF would have justification to attack even harder.
That is an extremely problematic view. It reminds me of the Évian Conference where Hitler was arguing that "no one wants the jews" since the US, UK, and other countries refused to take in german jewish refugees, and thus "the final solution" was spawned. It's an extremely dehumanising view that ended up in genocide. Please refrain from repeating such opinions.
Besides that, the Palestinians have a long history in Palestine. I don't understand what you're hinting at with "wanting them back". Back where? They already have a home.
You misconstrued what I said. I meant they don't have anything to offer either Israel nor Egypt. Even if they wanted to negotiate again, they don't have anything going for them. Don't twist my words to fit some other topic.
Tbh, if you don't want people to misunderstand the things you say, then you need to start saying things with your chest. Stop posting inscrutable and reactionary blandities and start posting clear and intelligible opinions supported by as many facts as you're able to muster. Lemmy will be a better place if you do :)
Wow so I don't play along and you hit me with the "reactionary blandities". You can confront what I said rather than spout off. I'm sure you have some great points to cover. I don't particularly like being made a scarecrow but please educate me.
The point that I'm trying to make is that your comments are so nonspecific that it is impossible to "educate you" for the same reasons that it is impossible to nail a cloud to a wall. For example, in your first comment, you say that it is "Interesting how you used Oslo II and not the failed camp David summit options that Israel tried" but you don't explain why you think it's interesting or why they failed or why you think they should have succeeded but didn't or any other jumping off point to give others a chance to agree with you or rebut you. You just said something bland and vague and impossible to pin down. How could anyone possibly agree or disagree or even have a discussion about a statement as generic as "I find this interesting!"?
Ummm all I tried to say was that it's unfair to use a temporary solution (Oslo II) as the metric. I find it interesting that you can't understand that. Do you want me to elaborate on why I find that interesting or do you want to address why the green line is still in contention? You seem to be an expert at deflecting.
So say that with your chest! Say what you believe clearly and concisely exactly like you just did, explain why you believe what you do, and do it in a top-level comment without someone having to prompt you twice to do it. If you want bonus points, provide relevant citations for your claims.
That's how you make your posts corporeal rather than cloudlike. You have to put yourself out there and make your position known, and if you're going to do that then you might as well take the time to come correct
You are pretty patronizing lol you came into this conversation not saying anything with expectations. I am not trying to debate lord like the rest of you guys. I generally write here the same way i talk. I am not trying to win debates. If you have any more suggestions, my suggestion box is right here 🗑
I honestly dont care what you guys think of me. That might be the difference between us. Not going to tiptoe every engagement because im afraid I might not have enough value to add.
ok
You went this whole way just to tell me my position isnt strong enough as if this were my dissertation. While you are here you can atleast bring an opinion forth. Or do you need to look into the research on that first?
The do explain why you said “they don’t want them back”. When have the majority of Palestinians come from the Egyptian part of the Sinai peninsula? Since you’re obviously taking about this “back” it implies they must come from there, right? And please do explain what that message is hinting at or implying. Why would it even matter if someone “wanted them back”?
Let me put it this way for you: Do Europeans want the Ashkenazi Jews back? Does that even matter? Can you see how out of place this sounds now?
Why are you guys harping on one sentence.... All I meant was that Palestine has 0 friends here. They have no leverage yet they want fucking Oslo II to come back like if the last 20 years was a bad dream.
Because you’re clearly showing your true colours. There’s no point in having a genuine conversation with someone that talks in such a dehumanising manner.
My true colors is that Palestinians fucked up? Where am I being dehumanizing? I am just pointing out that Oslo II is not now nor not ever going to be a solution unless Gaza start shitting gold. Green line is a distant memory.
Their shit disturbing at every opportunity is probably creating more problems than supporting them fixes. Every time Mossad goes off page and assassinates someone else, they're making more enemies.
We know it's because if there was ever peace accidentally made in that area, Israel would be out of a job and hence the money, so there's no fucking way they're going to let that happen. So destabilizing the area is in Israel's best interests.
Huh??? How does Israel lose money if there was peace??? I am curious to hear your opinion on what kind of revenues makes up Israel's GDP and where instability of the Middle East fits into that.
The money the US sends?
So the usual $5B in aid that Israel gets. You know Israels GDP was close to $600B last year right?
They had a budget surplus of less than $5b least year, so that money still makes a difference. Not sure if it's just the usual $5b either right now, I didn't go digging hard for it, but the data I saw for for much aid the US sends Israel was from before Oct.
I think you have a misunderstanding on how these funds work
US government gives $5b to various US weapons manufacturers who then send weapons to Israel, who then has weapons without needing to spend their own budget money on them, saving $5b.
What do they need this funding for again? Would they need this if there was peace?
They might. There's peace because attacking is too dangerous (what they have now, at least with the nations not attacking them) vs peace because treaties are in place vs peace because no one wants to attack them. That middle one is risky because situations can change fast.
And there's another angle that questions whether they wouldn't need weapons during peace for less generous reasons.
So in the ideal scenario where there is lasting peace with open borders and open trade... Why would Israel need funding? If anything the whole region would benefit from this I don't understand why people think that the country NEEDS instability. They are doing well off as is with these problems and I would bet everything I would ever own that lasting peace would make their situation even more profitable.