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I (23 M) am not sure how to deal with money with my BF (21M) (lemmy.world)
submitted 1 year ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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Hey! I recently started dating someone, and it is both of our first relationships. We have only been dating for 5 months. We both go to the same college in NY, and we recently decided to make a 3-day road trip in Early September.

The financial discussions for our upcoming trip have been a bit awkward, and we sorta decided that I will be footing the bill for the hotel, while he would cover gas and food. I felt like this was a bit unfair, as the cost of the hotel is probably ~3x what gas/food would cost us. I had brought this up and I noticed it was a bit of a trigger for him, and it was clear he wasn't too keen on having the discussion. I don't think this comes from malice, but more so that money discussions are always awkward, and this is both of our first relationships.

I had offered to split it so that he pays a quarter of the hotel charge, and he sort of reluctantly said yes, but mentioned he doesn't have the money right now, so I didn't really push further.

Both of us have different perspectives on money - he is a lot more frivolous than me in spending, while I'm pretty frugal. Even though we're both in university, I have more disposable income than him (mostly because of my frugality).

I'm worried that I will resent him during and after the trip because of this, and I know I need to bring it up to him, but I don't know how I should approach it. I do really want to go on the trip, and I realize that I may be too "cheap" and should let things go. At the same time, I'm feeling more and more resentful whenever he mentions how he spent money buying (non-essential) new clothes or books. I've been bottling it up for a bit since he's going through a bit of a rough patch, but the date of the trip is approaching and I can't keep my mind off things.

To clarify, my questions are:

  1. How do I bring it up to him? I'm worried if it feels like too much like an ultimatum, we'd have to cancel the trip.

  2. Should I just "suck it up"? I know in relationships things aren't always equal. I would like to think if the roles were reversed he would do the same, but I'm not sure if he would.

I can not emphasize how much I like him. My post may have made this sound like a toxic relationship but it is anything but. It's just one small part of an otherwise amazing relationship.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You have to first decide which you want more, the trip as you've defined it so far, or equal shares of the cost. From his money reluctance it sounds like he is unable or unwilling to shoulder half of the costs of what you have defined for the trip size right now. There are 3 possible outcomes:

  • You keep the trip the size it is - each pay half
  • You keep the trip the size it is, and he's unwilling to pay half, but the size is important enough to you, you pay more than your share and have to be okay with that without being resentful.
  • You change the size of the trip to smaller so each of you is still paying half, but it is a size he's willing to pay.

"Hey BF, I'm concerned I haven't really communicated well with you for the planning and paying for this trip. This is the first time for both of us, and after how it unfolded, I realize where we could have communicated to each other differently to make sure we're both comfortable with this. As it stands, if we total up all the money that needs to be spent for both of us for this trip, I'm paying way more than half. This makes me uncomfortable, and it took me this long to be able to put in into words. I want us to be equals in the this relationship and just like I wouldn't ask you to be uncomfortable spending more than you want to on me, I feel the same from my side. ....

... We had some discussion about making the our two shares closer to equal with me still paying more, and I felt from you that you're concerned about even taking on that much. I can think of a couple paths forward. If we want to keep the trip the same size it is right now, we can each pay half, which would which would mean we both pay $X. Alternatively, I don't want you to be uncomfortable with the spending level either, so maybe we should re-examine the trip and scale it back a bit so that equal shares from both of us give us a trip we can both afford together. Does what I'm asking make sense for my concerns? Can you tell me about your concerns for the costs and we might even be able to find a third or fourth option where we're both happy with the end result?"

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Thank you so much for your reply!

I think the size of the trip is small enough that if we want to reduce costs we might just not end up going and doing something more local (which honestly, I don't mind either). The trip size/hotel choice was also mostly his idea, not mine. I didn't mention this in my original post, but I think this adds to my feelings towards this trip (i.e. "why am I paying more if this was your idea?" even though that's an awful way to put it)

Thank you for your sample message, sometimes I feel like I'm emotionally incompetent and don't know how to frame the simples of things lol.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

I think the size of the trip is small enough that if we want to reduce costs we might just not end up going and doing something more local (which honestly, I don’t mind either).

This is perfect! Suggest this instead.

"BF, you communicated to me that half of the [big trip] would put a strain on your finances. I appreciate you sharing that concern with me, and I respect you managing your finances to not overspend. Honestly, I think about the costs too for myself. It feels like we're both feeling over-extended with the costs of [big trip]. How about instead we do [local thing] instead? The total cost is only X, which means a half we each pay is only Y. That means we don't have to over-extend and we're both comfortable with what we have to pay. What do you think?"

If he continues to push for [big trip] without willing to pay half, then its a red flag, but it allows you to have the conversation about why he feels you should be paying more when you're both getting equal amounts of trip out of it. This will be a very important conversation. He will be explaining why he believes your money is less important to him than his money is to him. I hope I'm wrong here.

The trip size/hotel choice was also mostly his idea, not mine. I didn’t mention this in my original post, but I think this adds to my feelings towards this trip (i.e. “why am I paying more if this was your idea?” even though that’s an awful way to put it)

Yeah this is concerning. Its not an awful way to think about it from your perspective. Its honest with yourself about how you feel. Don't lie to yourself for someone else's benefit. In the end you're hurting yourself.

He came up with this idea, found the hotel that he's not willing to pay his half for, and then grumbles when you ask for equality? Red flags, I'm afraid. Don't lose heart entirely. When we're young lots of us are making mistakes. He too may have a chance to learn and grow from this. Honest and open communication between you two will give him that opportunity. It will be on him to use the opportunity, however. If he chooses to belittle you or treat you less than an equal, know that you deserve better.

Thank you for your sample message, sometimes I feel like I’m emotionally incompetent and don’t know how to frame the simples of things lol.

You are NOT incompetent! You are inexperience. We all start that way. There's no textbook that teaches us how to do these things. Those that give you good answers when you ask can show you the emotional scars they earned from learning the hard way. You'll have your share of emotional scars too. That's just life. Don't despair! Simply try and be the best version of yourself everyday. The race is never with others, just with yesterday's version of ourselves.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

His planning a trip that he expects you to pay for is probably the tip of the iceberg, OP. Your perfect boyfriend is probably only lovebombing you. This is how financial abuse starts.

If you do give in, watch for the next level. If I'm wrong, he won't do this again. If I'm right, he will up the ante until he sees how much you are willing to put up with.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Definitely would not "suck it up". Try to talk to him and explain that you feel that it is not an equal commitment on both sides for the trip. If he can't come around and agree or doesn't try to listen to you then he's probably not ready for a healthy relationship then tbh

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There are several possibilities here.

  1. He can afford but unwilling to pay half. Huge red flag.

  2. He cannot afford to pay half.

  3. You cannot afford to pay half.

  4. You can afford to pay half but cannot afford all.

  5. You can afford to pay all.

Afford in this context does not mean have the money for at this exact moment. It means being able to pay and being able to continue to pay for all of the other things you want or have to pay for in life.

Many people buy things they can pay for but they can't afford.

It is possible that your can afford a level of luxury that he cannot. If you chose the hotels and he couldn't afford them he may have been too embarrassed to say no. This is super common early in relationships.

Your may be worried that he is using you for your money. If you are afraid of that then you are already in a bad place in your relationship.

If there is a wealth imbalance, either you suck it up or you end it. It you think he is using you, end it

If there is not a wealth imbalance, one of you doesn't know what you are capable of affording. Either you are spending too much or he doesn't understand how much he can afford.

The most likely scenario is that he cannot afford it but it's to ashamed to say so. Either you can afford to pay the difference or you can't. If you can't, the vacation costs too much. If you insist on going on a vacation your partner cannot afford and you make him pay half, you are the asshole. It he chose the vacation and is giving you to pay more, he is the asshole.

Either spend less on the vacation so you can both afford it, or it will be a problem.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Thank you for your response, I really appreciate it!

I can "afford" this trip in both senses of the term, the trip will not have any impact on my necessary spending/bills, and I have an emergency fund that is not being touched by this trip. It is still, psychologically, a huge amount for me. I am the kind of person who thinks twice before buying McDonalds, which again is out of frugality, not of necessity.

In terms of the hotel and the idea of the trip, both were his, though we did have a discussion beforehand. The hotel is only a bit more expensive than the cheapest option we had.

Your may be worried that he is using you for your money. If you are afraid of that then you are already in a bad place in your relationship.

This was a scary sentence to read, lol. I have felt this way a few times in the relationship already. I have brought this up and there has not been a huge outcry, more of a "I had no idea you felt this way, I'm sorry." We always take turns to pay when we eat out, for instance - but I've also noticed we (well, he) tends to spend more when I'm paying.

I think the reason for this is because, for him, the only other kind of relationship he's had is with family (where they obviously pay) and friends (he has a rich friend who, I've heard, covers a disproportionate amount). He's used to "being treated" and just subconsciously doesn't think too much about what the other person is paying. This is also my first romantic relationship, but I live on the other coast from my family and my friends always split the bill, so I'm always very conscious about what other people are spending for me. I don't really know if there is a "right" person here.

I have a hard time saying no to things, too, which is perhaps a part of the reason why it's reached this point. But for the trip, I expected it would be more even.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If I can offer some input to an overarching problem you are going to face other than just this one. I am like you in which I am frugal as fuck. I have a lot of spending money because of it and am extremely uncertain about trusting anyone that feels the need to make me spend it one way or another. Frankly, this feeling sucks.

I have dated someone that was rather carefree with their spending habits and it makes you very uncomfortable. However, that isn't healthy for me mentally and I needed work out the problem. If your relationship becomes serious enough, you will be sharing finances to pay for things like a home or food.

My frugal solution to that problem that puts my mind at ease is to keep your finances completely separate and have a single pool or account you share for the sole purpose of paying bills, dates and things like that. You both contribute a percentage of your income depending on who makes more and what you both are willing to put in. If you don't have enough in there for the thing you want to do, then tough shit unless you both agree to add more.

Having your accounts separate after that allows you to rest easy knowing your money is still in your control, your bills are being paid equally, and your partner can spend their money on whatever the fuck they want and you don't need to feel like they are wasting it. At the end of the day, it is still their money to do with what they wish.

That being said, you need to get your partner to agree to that. Which can be easier said than done because they may feel like you don't trust them. In all actuality though, you don't want to have to need to trust them. So starting with this idea of financial separation at the beginning of the relationship is a lot easier than later down the road.

Unfortunately, financial decisions are a major thing that effects relationships. They will come up in yours as it will eat at you until you do something about it. So relax, take the time to think about what you want and share it with your partner. If they can't get on board, then you will not last. Not trying to be mean, but it will cause resentment like you mentioned before.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This is hard. It does sound like there is a bit of a wealth imbalance.

First, a defense of you partner. When someone is poor, or has grown up with poverty, seeing someone who has money but doesn't spend it can be difficult. Sometimes this can be due to monetary education as a child, but generally those who do not gain financial literacy early in life struggle with understanding money and how it works until they do gain financial literacy.

It sounds as if you have had some financial training, probably given to you by your parents. Having things like an emergency fund, particularly at your age, is exceptionally rare.

If your partner hasn't had a similar experience, it can be extremely painful to them to see you 'have money', while they may feel like they struggle daily.

There is a reason most lottery winners who are poor typically lose all the money they win in a matter of years... Even hundreds of millions of dollars can disappear on them in often as little as 7 years. Understanding the psychology of how poverty finance works can help in these situations.

Most people, without financial literacy training, will immediately spend all of the money they have. This behavior is taught to them at a very young age. The reason is that money you don't have can't be taken from you. Debt is essentially forever and infinite. Liquid capital is extremely limited and will disappear if not used immediately. Most poor people will immediately spend all of their money on themselves, their family and their friends without thought. This desire to spend is not driven by greed, but instead by love. Everyone wants their friends and family to have the things they desire. Since money is temporary, spend it when it is available.

The psychology of not spending money is literally only a privilege of those who have some financial freedom.

From this lens, seeing a person you are with not spending their money on you is painful.

This isn't to say that is exactly what is happening, but it sounds possible.

What does sound true is that you are already on guard. This on guard feeling is the part that is hard to escape... And frankly it can be difficult to ever move past this.

To be clear, this is a you problem.

That isn't too say that you are wrong. But the problem is yours to figure out. Either you figure out if you think he is taking advantage of you or he isn't.

This is going to be a you thing to work out. You should ask him questions to figure out what he is doing and how he feels. You need to figure out how you feel.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This seems like a rather practical problem and you have gotten so much good advice so I'm going to address it from a different perspective.

I do have a bit of the impression that you are more inclined to this penny counting mindset, probably because of your frugal nature. It is important to consider your own shortcomings and decide if they are a significant contributing factor to a problem. (Within reason, people being abused are often disproportionately convinced it is their fault/responsibility)

I think you got good advice for how to talk to him. I think the next part is to also figure out what you can do to not have this constant tally of who spent what. And then discuss it with him because it's not totally implausible that he has picked up on it. Maybe you spend more but consider if he contributes more significantly to the relationship in other ways that you may fall a little short on. And maybe don't judge too harshly on books and clothes if they are still occasional and cheaper, we all probably spend at least $100 a month, call it sanity tax, where we buy things that make us feel good and keeps the dregs of daily life, obligations, and stress at bay.

Perhaps do use the app everyone suggests for bigger things like planned trips or outings that are obviously going to be over a certain amount you both agree on.

Please keep in mind a lot of this is based on assuming the best of both parties. You're not wrong for feeling uncomfortable and worry about being taken advantage of. I just wanted you to pause and reflect on that a little more and if it is worth addressing as well, and if so how.

I think this is a healthy conflict to have and how you both navigate it is going to lay a lot of groundwork for the relationship!

(Edit: this was originally started as a reply to a comment and then I was like fuck it I'll make my own but now I realize it looks way more negative to you out of context! It started as a response to where you said you find yourself penny counting)

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Split 50/50, its only fair and no one can argument otherwise

If he cant afford the 50% maybe he should have said that before the trip was planned.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

He may be perfect in every way but handling money, but this is a HUGE DEAL.

There are only two ways to proceed with a relationship like this: end it, or create shiny titanium boundaries regarding money.

"I will split all shared costs 50/50, and we will each pay for our own food, or the trip is off." If he will not negotiate, you can't take a compromising approach. HE WILL NOT COMPROMISE, so DON'T TRY TO COMPROMISE. Decide what you are willing to do, state it, and he can take it or leave it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Without getting into the whole relationship side of things. My partner and I use the splitwise app for almost all our joint spending and find it works well to keep things fair and it keeps a record of things. Most things are split 50/50, but you can can do any percentage split based on the situation - like if one person uses the car most of that week, we might split fuel 70/30 or if one of us wanted to splurge on a shared expense and the other didn't, we might agreed to split it 60/40 - that way the splurger gets what they want and it fits within the others budget.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm a huge fan of splitwise-like apps, but somebody (way before this relationship) convinced me that you shouldn't count pennies in a romantic relationship. I feel like that was terrible advice and I should not have listened, because (ironically) I now spend a lot of time penny-counting ("last time he paid $20 for food, this time I paid $35").

We had this discussion early on in our relationship and we opted to keep it more """natural""", but I think I may want to talk to him about splitting everything more evenly. I just feel like that's an asshole thing to do once we've already started the relationship, but I'm probably wrong.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I know this is late but I wanted to provide some advice from my personal experience, in case it helps. My husband and I dated for 10 years before we got married and had a policy of splitting big items 50/50 (groceries/restaurants/hotels/tickets) and letting small items (coffee/drinks/snacks) work themselves out naturally. Early in our relationship I made more money and later on he made more but we always had a policy of splitting 50/50. It didn't matter to us who made more because we didn't want to burden the other with bills unfairly. This absolutely lead to times where we scaled back plans to fit the others budget.

The important thing is that we talked about it and agreed together in what was fair to us. I truly hope you can both have an open and honest conversation and come to a agreement you both feel is fair.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Nah, you're alright. It took us a while before we committed to splitwise and yeah, it was mostly a convenience thing. Less stress over maths and keeping tabs. You could say that it's causing you stress and you'd like to at least give a splitwise-like app a go. It'll hopwfully free up your mind to focus on the romance and each other.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Whose idea was the trip? If it was yours, he might have only agreed assuming you'd be paying more. If that was the case, asking him to take on more would understandably make him uncomfortable, and maybe you shouldn't.

On the other hand, if it was his idea, and he can't even meet you halfway, big red flag. Are you dating a man or a child?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Just a heads up - I use a website called split wise to divvy up costs for trips. You add everyone involved, and each person adds their expenses as well as how to share each one. It really makes it easy to fairly divide the cost, and it'll run the numbers and say, for example, if you paid 3x what he did on the hotel, then he owes you x dollars.

In this case, I'd have both of y'all add expenses and divide them down the center. That should be the status quo - this website makes it easy to split down the center so there's no real excuse not to. If he wants to deviate from that, then he needs to talk about why, whether it be due to differing financial backgrounds or financial priorities. Until you have that conversation, there is no reason why you should not be splitting costs equally besides the hassle of doing so, and this website removes that hassle so there will be no excuses left.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

On your second point, could you emphasize to him how you're taking the biggest cost for this trip, and that you'd love for him to splurge on a romantic thing for the two of you next time?

I.e. the "first round's on me!" approach

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

That's not a bad idea, ty! <3

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

It extremely depends on how the planning happened in the first place.

If you suggested the trip, planned it all, and then only brought up him paying for half as a footnote despite the trip being your idea and you waited til after he agreed to the plans before expecting him to pay, thats not cool.

The person who "invites" the other should be, by default, in charge of expenses. If you dont want to be in charge of expenses, you need to make that clear from the start.

For example if I invite someone out to dinner with me on a date, the assumption is because I am the host, I am by default footing the bill, and if I want to split the bill I must bring that up ahead of time in some manner.

Note this is not the same as both of you vaguely deciding to go out together to a restaurant, as a group decision! IE "What do you wanna do?" "I dunno, we could go get lunch" "Yeah I could go for lunch", this is not you being the host, this is both of you going together, so thats not the same.

Who is "hosting" the event, vs if you both happen to be going together at the same time, changes contextually the "default" assumption for who is paying.

However, it is ALSO considered proper manners to then, if you arent the host, to still return the favor by offering to pay anyways, but if they insist on paying, you accept it. The person who gets "dibs" on insisting to pay is the host because they did the inviting/selection of venue/thing.

But if you are invited out and you dont make a bit of an attempt to offer to pay your share, its still rude! You have to do the whole "I can pay for myself" "No its fine" "Are you sure?" "I insist" song and dance, because it's how you communicate respect and consent for who pays.

So contextually it extremely matters here how the entire convo for this trip came up. Who suggested it? Who's idea was it? Who picked venues/spots out?

If you, OP, picked the places out and came up with the idea, and you also never up front requested a 50/50 split, then yes it would be now considered rude to last minute request a 50/50 split.

Reasoning why:

If you suggest venues and whatnot that are out of the budget of the other person, but because you are the host, the assumption is you are paying so the other person will agree to go, because they think "Well Im not paying so ya I would love to be treated"

Then if you suddenly flip to expecting them to pay for themself after you already locked in the venue, they feel "trapped". If they back out then you lose deposits or whatnot on your venues potentially, and it ruins the plans. But they also can't afford what they thought they wouldnt need to pay for.

It's a sudden expense they didnt account for, and that kind of fucks em over.

Whereas if you brought it up front they could have declined, or offered an alternative in their budget. By waiting until the last minute you have "cornered" them into a no-win scenario and that sucks, don't do that.

So OP Im gonna say you have to take the L on this one, but for future cases, keep this in mind and do it the right and proper way so no one gets hurt.