this post was submitted on 22 Jan 2022
-1 points (0.0% liked)

GenZhouArchive

224 readers
1 users here now

A space to archive anything from /r/GenZhou

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
[email protected]
-1
Where does the defence of North Korea from socialists come from? (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 2 years ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
24 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

u/Outside_Bug6347 - originally from r/GenZhou
Got banned from other subreddits for this but here I go again. I consider myself a socialist, very pro Cuba, Vietnam and Laos, highly critical of Stalin and Moa but sympathetic to modern day China. Even though I have qualms with Moa (cultural revolution was a bit of a flop but I know that wasn’t his fault entirely and it had positives) and after reading a lot of work in the gulags Stalin did seem to be overly authoritarian though he did raise quality of life for many people. My main problem with this sort of modern communist Reddit community is the defence of North Korea. I do not think North Korea is defensible, South Koreans enjoy a quality of life that is clearly higher and it’s almost impossible for me to wrap my brain around anyone defending that regime. Thoughts?

top 24 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

u/literalshillaccount - originally from r/GenZhou
it is highly important to learn history of AES states as much of it is heavily propagandized and white-washed. 15% of North Koreans died during the war and their Infrastructure was LEVELED. Around 85% of all the countries cities and towns were destroyed. A la Vietnam.

Currently North Korea sits on trillions of dollars of untapped resources. Which is why propaganda is so extensive on this small Asian country. Since it's inception out of the war its had trouble from day 1 to accommodate for its material conditions and building its industry. Another big factor of NK's stunted growth was the collapse of the Soviet Union which traded food. Cuba had a similar problem but they were able to research more advanced farming techniques which doesn't require modern machinery. (Organic farming)

For your QOL argument North Korea can really only be compared to developing nations, to which they surpass in alot of metrics including education and Healthcare. As a socialist it's also important to recognize the struggle of states that are under threat of western imperialism and exploitation whether you agree or disagree ideologically. The history of North Korea is probably the first thing to explore if you want to better understand their modern situation.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

u/SWFLSOLIDARITY - originally from r/GenZhou
Why are you critical of Stalin?

Edit: I’ve read your responses and questions. I’ll let you find your path with “socialism”.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

u/WeilaiHope - originally from r/GenZhou
The nation has so many sanctions on it, even China has been compelled to sanction it, it isn't possible to judge North Korea fairly without understanding the crippling effect of the sanctions. Its essentially cut off from world trade and resources.

Their agriculture is completely stunted, they cannot get access to fertilisers, machinery, enough vehicle fuel, yet they have millions to feed. Feeding a country isn't that hard anymore because of these things, without them NK is sort of relying on pre industrial farming to feed a modern small country. And then western analysts say "look, the regime can't feed its people" yea neither would the US without combine harvesters and such.

In terms of the tyrannical shit the regime does, there's no doubt the outlandish stuff is just made up, much of it is extremely absurd and only believed because it constantly gets repeated. The sources are the same as those claiming weird shit about China which we know isn't true since China is more accessible.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

u/mercurythermometer - originally from r/GenZhou
The north had a large number of their population killed in the Korean War, they have stupid amount of sanctions on it, and have to deal with the south practicing invading them every year.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

u/Outside_Bug6347 - originally from r/GenZhou
But does that justify torture and a system where son governs after father?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

u/mercurythermometer - originally from r/GenZhou
Kim Jong un and Kim jong I’ll are and were not head of state. Torture isn’t justifiable imo, hence why we support things critically, with nuance. And not denying that it happens in the country, im sure it does, just not nearly to the scale I assume you think it is. Most the shit we hear about the DPRK is bs. Either half truths or just made up lies.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

u/aimixin - originally from r/GenZhou
If you are pro-Cuba and anti-DPRK then you are very confused.

If someone is interested in what the Cubans’ opinion is on certain questions, he should ask the [North] Koreans. And if someone asks what [North] Korea’s standpoint may be in certain cases, he can safely ask the Cubans about that. Our views are completely identical in everything.

--- Raúl Castro

Your point about quality of life is a strange one. The country has been a target of the strongest sanctions in the worlds. It seems weird to condemn a country for being kept in poverty by imperialist powers, and then praise an imperialist colony for having more wealth flooded into it. Is that really your only reasoning?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

u/ComradeBeans17 - originally from r/GenZhou
If you want to elaborate on some of your issues with the DPRK, I could help clear some of them up. Why do you feel the DPRK is indefensible?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

u/Outside_Bug6347 - originally from r/GenZhou
Prison system Lack of free speech Oligarchical monarchy Little development except in military sector

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

u/ComradeBeans17 - originally from r/GenZhou

Prison system

Any specific issue with it?

Lack of free speech

Free speech for who?

The working class or the reactionaries? What makes you think the DPRK has any less freedom of speech than any other existing socialist state? Freedom of speech is a bourgeois ideal.

Oligarchical monarchy

Have you looked at their constitution comrade?

"Article 4: The sovereignty of the DPRK resides in the workers, peasants, working intellectuals and all other working people. The working people exercise power through their representative organs—the Supreme People’s Assembly and local people’s assemblies at all levels.

Article 5: All the State organs in the DPRK are formed and function on the principle of democratic centralism.

Article 6: The organs of State power at all levels, from the county People’s Assembly to the SPA, are elected on the principle of universal, equal and direct suffrage by secret ballot.

Article 7: Deputies to the organs of State power at all levels have close ties with their constituents and are accountable to them for their work. The electors may recall the deputies they have elected if the latter are not to be trusted.

Section I: The Supreme People’s Assembly Article 87: The Supreme People’s Assembly is the highest organ of State power in the DPRK."

Etc. Etc. You should have a look at it yourself. The DPRK is not a monarchy by any means.

Little development except in military sector

Strange that you find this aspect indefensible. This is the easiest thing to defend. Songun politics emphasizes military development because the DPRK was bombed into oblivion by imperialists. We are talking about a country who's southern half is occupied by a the USA which is still technically at war with the DPRK. The US is on the border running drills with the SK army, threatening the sovereignty of the DPRK. How can the DPRK put all of it's focus on economic development while it's vulnerable to imperialism?

This is an unfortunate reality which has been forced on the DPRK by imperialism

I highly recommend watching Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul and my brothers and sisters in the North

I find it odd that you've come to supporting all other AES besides the DPRK. They aren't really any different.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

u/Outside_Bug6347 - originally from r/GenZhou
I’ve read that the prisons utilize extreme torture and it kind of is a monarchy given the head of state is the son of the previous head of state no?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

u/oddmaus - originally from r/GenZhou
These people literally give you indepth replies and all you just say to them is "I've read somewhere they torturre people.."

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

u/ComradeBeans17 - originally from r/GenZhou
What sources are you reading exactly?

And what evidence have those sources supplied to you that substantiate these claims?

Absolutely no to all of this.

If you would like to watch some DPRK media I can leave you links at the bottom of this. Some things you can read to.

head of state is the son of the previous head of state no?

So? Raul Castro lead Cuba after Fidel and liberals used the same attack against them until Raul stepped down.

Tons of US politicians are related does that make the USA a monarchy? Do you know what a monarchy is? (I do not mean this an an insult) I'll quickly state the fact that Kim Jong Un is Chairman of the State Affairs Commission of the DPRK and Chairman of the Workers Party of Korea. He was elected to both of these positions. A monarch isn't elected.

A comrade on reddit here has wrote up a good piece debunking this idea that the DPRK is a monarchy, here

You should also check out those 2 documentaries in my other comment I think they'll help you start to see through the propaganda. Sounds like you've read some false defector stories.

For a look at the DPRK check out Phuong DPRK amazing youtube channel full of DPRK media.

Explore DPRK

Korean Friendship Association USA

You have obviously seen through the slander of the other existing socialist states, keep in mind that this is no different. The imperialists want you to hate the DPRK as much as they want you to hate China.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

u/therealbunkey - originally from r/GenZhou
If you wanna be a true ML, you’ve got to stop reading western bourgeois media and taking their word on literally everything. Almost everything you’ve heard about Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, Stalin, Mao, China and the DPRK is utter dogshit. If you have any questions about any of these countries/leaders, just ask me and I’ll provide sources.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

u/cbaltmackie - originally from r/GenZhou

I do not think North Korea is defensible

Why? Surely a difference in QoL isn't the only reasoning you have, unless you mean to imply that being poor makes a country "indefensible"

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago (3 children)

u/Outside_Bug6347 - originally from r/GenZhou
From what I have read their prisons are abhorrent and any criticism of their leader is punishable

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

u/thigh_squeeze - originally from r/GenZhou

A common claim in the West is that DPRK citizens are not free to criticise their government and that their speech is heavily restricted. I asked Hyun-Sik if he were free to criticise his government, he told me “ah, most definitely”. When I asked him if he knew of anyone who had been punished for criticisms made of the DPRK government, he simply said “not to my knowledge”.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

u/cbaltmackie - originally from r/GenZhou

From what I have read

Read from where? Who wrote it?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

u/TTP8630 - originally from r/GenZhou
Read from where? The US State Department website?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

u/Outside_Bug6347 - originally from r/GenZhou
Literally every piece of information I have been given defending North Korea is from the North Korean government. This might be okay but it is silly to say all western media about North Korea is false but they are telling the truth 100%

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

u/ComradeBeans17 - originally from r/GenZhou

Literally every piece of information I have been given defending North Korea is from the North Korean government.

Your not looking at the sources supplied to you obviously.

My Brothers and Sisters in the North is not made by the DPRK, its made by a south Korean/ German women. This is my third time recommending it to you in this thread. You are blatantly refusing to accept it. The other documentary i recommended was also not made by the DPRK government.

Here is a vlogger who lives and works part time in the DPRK with his family. He just vlogs his usual routines. This isn't from government. Jaka Parker

Dr. Dermot Hudson has studied Juche for 35 years, and visited the DPRK 18 times.

An African American's Journal Inside North Koread

Please at least watch one of these before you continue asserting things about the DPRK, or at least cite your sources so they can be debunked, your being very vague.

last

this playlist has interviews with various foreigners who went to the DPRK. Sure, these were filmed in the DPRK by the DPRK, however do you think the DPRK forced the Swiss communist youth to say nice things? Is the Venezuelan communist youth lying? Is the Syrian diplomat being bribed to make his statements?

On Kim Il Sung's 80th birthday when the 'Let Us Defend and Advance the Cause of Socialism' declaration was signed, do you think the 70 communist/progressive parties which sent representatives to sign were all confused and actually supporting a declaration created by a monarchy?

Secondly, if the DPRK media reports that Kim Jong Un is working to end bad conditions for children for example (as it often does) what should we think?

Well if we have a look at the Global Hunger Index we see that the 'prevalence for stunting in a child' was 51.0 in the year 2000. In 2021 the score was down to 19.1

'Prevalence for wasting of a child under five' was at 12.2 in the year 2000. It is 2.5 in 2021.

'The under 5 mortality rate' score was 6.0 in 2000. In 2021 it is down to 1.7.

And although not down a whole lot just yet, since Kim Jong Un took office in 2012 the 'proportion of undernourished in the population' dropped 0.3 points as of 2021.

The general GHI score trend shows that in 2000 DPRK scored 39.5 which is an "alarming" level of hunger. The trend has only gone down over the last 22 years, as of 2021 it was at 25.2 which is still a "serious" level of hunger, but improved nonetheless, all while being the #1 sanctioned country in the world.

With that pointed out, does the DPRK state media say these things then to boost Kim Jong Un's ego? Or to brainwash people and lie to look good? Or could it simply be the truth?

When the state media reports that it is building free furnished housing for people effected by a flood we could choose not to believe it, but I find that extremely hard to do when they provide Video and photo evidence to back up the claim.

Unless of course we decide to believe for instance, the baseless claim that there are "fake" cities in the DPRK and everybody is actually homeless.

Next time you read a claim about the DPRK, ask yourself if you were provided substantial evidence to back up the claim. Investigate the sources of the claim and consider the class interest of the source.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

u/pope-ron-paul-II - originally from r/GenZhou
If the crazy stories about NK are 90% false and the other 10% is true, how then would we judge the US which still has a torture camp in Guantanamo, and recently killed over a million people in Iraq and Afghanistan? If NK had a prison population how then do we judge the US, which has the largest prison population on earth?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

u/Outside_Bug6347 - originally from r/GenZhou
This is kind of a deflection I obviously do not like the US

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

u/pope-ron-paul-II - originally from r/GenZhou
it’s not a deflection it’s just asking to compare states and the relative context by which we judge them. if the US is basically a nazi monster, then what’s the point of trying to theoryflect on North Korea and whether or not it’s “Good enough” for western leftist people online