this post was submitted on 21 Aug 2024
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[Dormant] Electric Vehicles

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The Volkswagen ID. Buzz will start at $59,995 (arstechnica.com)
submitted 3 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
43 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

I don't agree with this article. 60k for this is way too much. Ev makers really need to work on pricing.

If it feels like many years since you first saw Volkswagen's retro electric microbus, the ID. Buzz, you're not wrong. It's surprisingly aptly named; I can't think of another car during the past decade that has aroused so much interest among people who don't usually care about four-wheeled transport. Nearly eight years after the concept made its debut, the Buzz is on sale in Europe and has been for a year. Now it's time for America to get its turn, with deliveries starting later this year.

We drove the Euro-spec Buzz almost two years ago, but it's fair to say the version that's coming to the US is a better proposition. The Buzz we drove had a shorter wheelbase, a smaller-capacity battery, and seats only for five, and if you sat in the back, there was no ventilation, and the windows couldn't be opened.

The US market will only receive the longer-wheelbase Buzz, which adds about 10 inches (250 mm) between the axles. This adds room for a third row of seats, making it a proper seven-seater. It should be a bit more humane sitting in the back, as there are air vents—we're waiting to drive it to find out if any windows open back there.

The three-row Buzz also carries a bigger (91 kWh) battery pack, but there's no getting around that retro shape's big bluff frontal area, and the EPA range estimate for the rear-wheel drive Buzz is just 234 miles (377 km), a number we're sure will disappoint many who've been patiently waiting for the electric minibus. All-wheel drive drops the range by 3 miles (5 km).

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 3 months ago (4 children)

A van would be a road trip vehicle, not a city driver. I don't understand why the range is so short. If this was a 350+ mile van, with an 800v battery that supported the 200+Kw NACS tesla charge plug, I would probably buy it. Even with it being as expensive as it is.

That being said, it would be great if it could hit all those numbers and still be less than $40k. It would probably sell like hotcakes with those specs.

Of course there's the other complaints too, like too much tech in the dashboard, not enough buttons. In the end, it's too much sizzle, not enough steak.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 months ago

Having a range of 350 miles would require a battery north of 150 kwh. This would bring new challenges, as the ID Buzz can only carry about 500kg now.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

A van with three rows of seats would be a family vehicle and the majority of buyers wont need more range than what it offers except for a couple of times a year where they could simply rent a gas van instead of having to pay extra for an even bigger battery that they pretty much never need.

These batteries don't appear out of thin air, they require limited resources just like petrol is. People should start being realistic in regards to their actual range needs and the various options they have to cover long distances when needed.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Great point, I should expect that when I pay $60,000+ for a vehicle, I'll need to rent a different vehicle for when I want to go somewhere.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago

Hah this made me actually laugh thanks

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

If it's a semi luxury EV that you're buying? Yeah.

Would you complain that your 200k Bentley can't tow your boat as well?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Of course there’s the other complaints too, like too much tech in the dashboard, not enough buttons.

My guess is that more buttons actually increases costs. Safety laws require a screen for a backup camera, so the screen is going to be there anyway. Adding buttons means many more SKUs to keep as well as costs for assembly. I prefer buttons for many functions, but for a value play, touchscreen controls likely make the vehicle cheaper to manufacture and cheaper to sell.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Saftey laws are about to require automatic emergency braking for vehicles and pedestrians as well, which will require additional sensors and compute on even the lowest tech cars.

The days of tech less cars is long gone.

[–] filcuk 2 points 3 months ago

It's the new release now, fix later imo. It's easier to worm on your dash software if you don't have to collaborate with engineers about what buttons there are and where they're placed. Just a screen, complete free for all. Buttons take effort.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 3 months ago (5 children)

Cars seem so wildly overpriced to me. They're ten times what I feel willing to pay for the ability to go zoom whenever I want instead of planning ahead, bussing, walking, and taking rail as needed. Failing all else, I can take a cab and it costs no gas or insurance. I don't get what the use-case for cars is, unless you are forced.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 months ago

Companies still seem to think it's the COVID era where they could tack on an extra $20k to the price of a car and people will still buy it and not an era where prime interest rates are near double digits after years of high inflation. As we're seeing with Stellantis, cars are sitting on lots much longer with no buyers. They've already started layoffs and I expect we'll see it with other companies (along with lower prices and better incentives) soon too.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago

I don't get what the use-case for cars is, unless you are forced

They’re most useful for situations where there aren’t (many) people. Trains, buses, and cabs don’t frequently go to those places and in the case of cabs, if they do you still may find you don’t have cell service when you’re ready to go home.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Depends on where you live, in my country trains and busses are horribly expensive. But yes, cars are overpriced.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

how many fares would the price of a car cover? 60k to me sounds like it might as well be infinite rides.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Interesting question.

Out of curiosity I looked up what an Uber trip to town(14mi) costs: $31 so $62 round trip.

That works out to ~968; let’s say 1000 trips.

For me, I make ~4 trips per week = 250 weeks = 4.8 years

Of course there are so many variables left out of this like gas, insurance, maintenance, time spent coordinating transportation, trips other than just “to town”.

My car cost half this one so I would only get ~2.5 years worth of trips to town.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

The time saved is the biggest factor for me. Our infrastructure blows so it would be significantly longer to go out and do stuff with public transport vs just using my car. When I visited Japan car time vs train time was comparable with like 2 to 5 minute difference depending on where you were going. That alone would have me taking the train significantly more often.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

The ID Buzz is expensive, yes. But this category of cars is generally quite expensive, probably due to the market niche.

In germany, about 1% of new electric cars are ID Buzz.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

only certain people are the target market for new cars. whatever your budget is, theres a used car out there you can get. for newish aiming for minimal depreciation, you should aim for buying a 3 year old car and selling it at 5 years.
don't feel bad, it means your friends and family actually think you are lovely and not competition.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

Everything you said made sense until the last bit about me being lovely.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I don't agree with this article.

They basically just listed the features and the prices. Not much opinion in that article.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)

They said the price was better than expected in the title. I Disagree.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 months ago

it’s better than we expected

They expected it to be about $70k. They were not expecting it to come in around $60. And that’s not too far out of the ballpark for hybrid 7 seater vans. Especially for plugin hybrid options.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d rather have model Y pricing and range, and this ain’t for me. That said I can see why you’d look at the hybrid 7 seater market and assume this would be a $70k base.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

They say it is cheaper than what they expected. The article states they expected $70K and its a bit cheaper than that. There's nothing incorrect about that.

[–] [email protected] -5 points 3 months ago

I included myself in the we and disagreed with the price. You are welcome to another opinion.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I wish the article mentioned any (or the lack of)V2H/G/L on the Buzz.

Which goes to price as well--if the Buzz could take the place of home battery backup, that would be a big nod to some economy.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

V2H/G/L

Thanks for introducing me to these terms. I’m certain my next vehicle will be an EV and without even knowing the name for it I knew I wanted V2H. It just seems like an absolutely perfect synergy.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 months ago

Hope they make a pop-top version at some point. Used to have one of those. Great for car camping since you could sleep two in the upper deck and not have to rearrange everything below.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Still no word on a Westfalia version, though with that range I don't know if I'd still want one.

Oh well, still getting my fake-GTI-sounds GTI.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

Westfalia is a third party contractor, they're renowned for the microbus conversions but they also did them for other vehicles and still are.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

How much is a transporter in the US?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

Not sold in the US. Shout-out to the chicken tax.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago

Way too high for that class of vehicles. My fear is that it won't sell well, and carmakers will say, "See, there's no demand for a 7+ person EV, we'll never make them again."

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Pfft. Just make it a million dollars.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

What do you mean by this? That the price is so high they may as well make it one million?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Yeah. I'm just tired of every company and their subsidiaries gouging everyone.

EVs in particular are a critical piece of stopping greenhouse gases and there isn't a reasonably priced new one, which I guess is par for the course. Not that this would be the lowest of their line anyway but - y'know. Make an empty version. Steering wheel and engines, that's it. Like the Cyberf*ck.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

A lot of the OEMs are LOSING money on the EVs they sell, and they've outright said it's the next generation vehicles we'll finally be able to start making low profits on, which mind you, many of them are delaying.

It's a lot more complicated than just swap the engine for a battery. They tried that and lost a shit load of money.

The cars require whole new architectures and supply chains and that's expensive.

Do you really feel entitled to them selling cars for a loss while they figure their shit out?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

Do you really feel entitled to them selling cars for a loss while they figure their shit out?

If I have to tell them how to implement thirty year old technology they’ve intentionally ignored while cooking the books on their EPA numbers, yeah.

What, do they need a bailout from the US taxpayers too? They got fifteen billion dollars in Net Profit last year. Howabout laying off your C-suite geniuses and build - what is it? - A “people’s car”?

They have no interest in doing so because the profit margins aren’t good enough. So yes, they may intercourse themselves forthwith.