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Is c/selfcrit not a bit blood sporty as a comm on here? (Not the actual concept of self crit, that's obviuously good) (hexbear.net)

submitted 2 hours ago* (last edited 15 minutes ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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I might be way off the mark here but the more I think about self crit and my own neurodivergence (maybe I'm been a bit black and white about this) the idea of having a sub where people go to self flagrate over their mistakes to signal to us they are reformed?

I dunno chat.

I've lurked here a while and while some of the drama on here has been funny or sad or anger inducing, at no point did I ever feel satisfied reading a self crit post. I never felt "oh the sights clean now time to make an account".

I butted heads with incels on here immediately and while those people genuinely made me uncomfortable i don't wish to see a selfcrit from them. In fact it would frankly appear disingenuous and virtue signally to me.

Like if people get called out then it's on them to go do the homework, I don't expect to have to mark it though. The people I butted heads with about that incel thread got comments removed and temp banned. That seems reasonable to me. I'll die inside if I see a self crit on it.

I dunno I think there's a lot of neurodivergence on this site, myself included. We try to make it a safe space for everyone which is great.

I think what I'm worried is that a culture exists on here where if a ND makes a mistake, they may feel cut off and left out from a community they need for socialising and support unless they make a self flagrating post further signposting their mistakes.

There's a very niche and cool silly culture on this site. For a lot of ND people who don't have supportive irl group I can't imagine how it would feel to make fuck up and then feel locked out or lost this clique. I don't think making a new account is the answer either because people's accounts and history are representatives of who they are so to lose that for some might be like losing their identity as well. Maybe I'm projecting here but if I really embarrassed myself and didn't think people would talk to me as much on here because of it and that the only way to fix it was a self crit post. That's scary.

And then when i see self crit posts I feel like "damn nobody needed this, it feels uncomfortable to see this" like them getting dog piled and a temp ban wasn't enough punishment.

I dunno maybe I'm being too lib here but self crit feels for more a "hey irl I learnt this and here's my progress" vs "I upset someone on the bear site and im sorry please let me back in".

Like it felt maybe relevant when the admins/mods did some self crit on their behaviour but like they run the site so that kinda makes sense (not really).... or it might have if they all did it, so far I only saw like a few and even then it felt uncomfortable to read their comments.

Clearly they made a mistake and having to convince faceless terminally online people that they had the sites best interests at heart was sad to watch given they clearly did care cos of the graft they put into the site.

I dunno I don't see the point in this comm personally but I'm bored, my tamagotchi just died and I have always kinda thought this since the comm appeared so like yeah, let me know what I'm missing because I'm not the world and obviously my single view will be bias and full of holes or missing context.

Until then the sub feels a bit like todd asking cheaters on fo76 to write an apology letter and it feels like a bit of a toxic power dynamic to have it on the site kinda looooming as an example of what happens to the naughty hexbears.

Edit: lmao I've deleted and undeleted this twice cos I'm scared of getting grief but then I'm kinda proving my point doing that so I'll be a big girl and leave it up.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 minutes ago

Self crit is good, just because nothings perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't try to have anything like it

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Self crit is a very good thing to do

Self crit as a comm feels sort of like "I publicly apologise to the community and accept my ritual humiliation"

I get the idea behind it, but in practice the message it's sending to everyone else is "get in line or else you'll be posting here if you want to keep using the site", which feels and functions like a social threat. It will be sending the anxiety of some comrades through the roof and it will be suppressing well-meaning but less well read comrades from speaking their minds in a way that will get any brainworms they have out into the open where they can actually be addressed.

I think this impression is given because it feels like people are being forced to go post there after moderator action - that's based entirely on an assumption though. Maybe it wouldn't feel that way if it felt like something people were doing entirely of their own.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 47 minutes ago

I get the idea behind it, but in practice the message it's sending to everyone else is "get in line or else you'll be posting here if you want to keep using the site", which feels and functions like a social threat. It will be sending the anxiety of some comrades through the roof and it will be suppressing well-meaning but less well read comrades from speaking their minds in a way that will get any brainworms they have out into the open where they can actually be addressed.

Get out of my mind liquid!!

I think that's it, I recognise my whole post is "vibe" (I hope i made that clear) and without interviewing everyone we can't really know but hey at least we are talking about it! Yey look at me go!!

[–] [email protected] 5 points 40 minutes ago (2 children)

not regulating bigotry on the site hurts disabled people, and banning people for bigotry with no recourse hurts disabled people, recourse for bigotry.... also hurts disabled people? i am adhd and autistic and i just dont get it. it seems like most people want the bigotry and its actully a small minority of people who have a problem with it (just the poc users) idk. it just feels like everyone only cares about this space being for a very small group of white autisitc people and anything that MAY make them slightly uncomfortable (meaning calling out their bigotry or having any expectations for them not to promote bigotry) is more serious a matter than the actual bigotry. also the comm is half formed due to the struggle sessions.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 7 minutes ago

it was always a bit suspicious to me that neurodivergence specifically is/was so widely brought to light here under the lense of ableism and the rest of the very, very wide disability spectrum is kinda just like...eh...ok sure, whatever to most people. at least that's the impression i got until getting together to make the comm + weekly discussion threads. i was really feeling very alienated too because while i am autistic i also have physical impairments and medical vulnerabilities and any time i'd try talking about those it was pretty much crickets from ppl i had otherwise seen going on about ableism so much. so i feel this. i don't really understand why it is so hard for the typical demographic here to be consistently principled -- well, i do know, but...yeah. i hope there is a way for any of us to make a dent.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 32 minutes ago (2 children)

I'm really sorry but I'm not following this comment.

Have I fucked up or offended or insinuated something here?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 12 minutes ago

im basically just very frustrated. im autistic too. which is why i dont want to ban people from the site or lock them out of the community permanently for mistakes. we agree there. but when this site has a persistent problem of bigotry evidenced by it bleeding poc users often in waves, (these waves are often completely unnoticed by the white users) something should be done about that. so we dont wanna ban people for every small bigotry right? because they live in a bigoted culture and this very site has retained that culture, there are people on here who openly admit to listening to cumtown and the adam frieldand show, that should not be a socially acceptable thing to say in an environment thats welcoming to poc people, especially black women. this is just one example of Hexbear site culture, there are many more but i dont have the time right now.

so what do we do? of the self crit com is not good what do we do? baning users causes rsd, and its unreasonable to have what? a dedicated mod team there to one by one explain why something is problematic to every users who says something wrong and upvotes that wrong thing? if its a site wide cultural issue is must be addressed site wide.
from what i can tell, the issue most people have is that they dont want to change, they dont want the site to be a safe place for poc, (well ones who arent ok with being treated poorly and dont agree with everything they say).

so im frustrated, not at you but at the discourse and everyone's priorities, none of them ever seem to be in the interest of the most oppressed in our society (including poc nd users)

[–] [email protected] 5 points 30 minutes ago (1 children)

you have not fucked up, offended or insinuated anything. dont fret. part 2 coming but in the mean time no stress.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 23 minutes ago

Oh cool thank you for clarifying rat-salute

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 hour ago (2 children)

I think you’re missing a small bit of the point of the comm. In my eyes, it’s not really specifically for self-flagellating and I think anyone that uses it in that manner is using it incorrectly. To me it starts an inner conversation about why the actions that individual took to help them understand why it was bad. In conjunction with this, it most certainly can help other folks understand that this particular thought or opinion is problematic and why, so it can help them start that inner monologue with themselves to help them along.

For example, the most recent post my SorosFootSoldier doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence that, overnight, they suddenly see the error of their ways in regards to homophobia and will be rid of it immediately. Instead, it is an acknowledgement of their action and a start to understanding why that was wrong. And, hopefully, others that took the same action in that thread will read what was posted and do the same. Hopefully.

I do understand your concerns though. They are very valid and I can’t blame you for feeling the way you feel on the matter. I just wish that the content on that specific comm was a little more tightly controlled.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 hour ago

Great comment!

The self-crit comm is not intended to be a space for self-flagellation or verbal punishment from other users.

The space was proposed with pretty much the exact intention you expressed, to be a space for site users to share the process they took to learn and grow from on-site and off-site mistakes or reactionary beliefs, and to help start dialogues for other users to follow along with that learning and growing.

Right now, we're a little concerned about post removals from the comm potentially worsening things if users are spiraling and self-flagellating. Site moderation is also trying to be extra forgiving across the whole site for the next bit given the often stressful nature of the holiday season, the recent struggle session, and the general reaction to recent attempts to more tightly control content on the site.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

See i totally agree with you there, when it first appeared I had the exact same thinking. But over time I think the very act of having it in a specific sub creates a spectator sport of people's worst moments.

Like if people wanted to self crit then making a post in c/chat raising what happened and having that growth and discussion there sounds great. But having specifically a sub for it feels like it's takes the organic growth and desire from the user to acknowledge their mistake away. Like instead of them going "I should go on c/chat and talk about this productively to address my mistake" it feels like a signposted expectation. Like have they learnt if they didn't decide for themselves? Like the initiative is important I feel. But that's just me literally strawmanning tbh.

Awwh I hate referencing soros like they aren't here but when I saw their post I didn't read it and think "good self crit" youre based again. I've seen that user a lot and they aren't a homophobe imo and it felt weird to see them essentially wearing that jacket to start a conversation BUT I'm not a gay man so it's not my place to decide that or make any comment on it so disregard my opinion there lmao. I dunno like with the incels from last week, I'd feel so bad if one of them felt compelled to self crit. I'd rather they make a c/chat and just have an organic conversation on that they've learnt on their own initiative not because c/selfcrit gave them the idea.

And I totally see your points too! I think I'll probably not engage with it myself but if it does help some positive growth in users then amazing and yes maybe it could be refocused to a more general critique of behaviour vs individuals unless it's specifically relevant to a personal experience?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

You raise some very good points here. It does seem like people do make the posts as an expectation now that there’s a contained area for it. But it is a double edged sword. Without it, it would rarely occur. With it, it occurs too often. A balanced would be nice to find, but I feel it’s too much of a razor’s edge. Maybe there’s a solution in there somewhere.

I don’t think Soros is homophobic either, but the opinion expressed was. There are many internalized thoughts that all of us have that are problematic in some way or another and this is one that Soros seems to have had. I know I have some myself and it sucks, but I try to root them out as I find them. Having him recognize and begin that process to root it out is wonderful.

Also, I’m obviously not a gay man, lol, but I definitely lived as one for a long time in my life. Opinions like the ones I saw yesterday still really hurt and fill me with a significant amount of disgust. I’m really glad that Soros started that conversation instead of it kinda just melting away into the modlog.

The value of the comm is nice, but it is lost through people trying to find instant salvation as well. Hopefully those who run the comm can either figure out a way to properly vet the info, create a template with which people can base their posts off of, or just shut it down entirely. Cause some of those posts are definitely self-aggrandizing.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 46 minutes ago)

I worry I'm strawmanning but yeah it's the choice to address what they did on their own without needing a signpost vs only doing it because of the sign post. Like yeah I honestly cant think of the answer because I agree that it will have encouraged some to be more mindful which is good!

Yeah and that i do totally recognise, I know I'm a bad girly girl and removing the brain worms of associating women and feminity has been a long process for me. Thanks modern media! Lmao dirt_owls post earlier about literally that topic was a aaaaah fuck moment cos I know that conditioning will still hide in me subconsciously. Like self crit is hard, I've had cycles of "who cares if people are feminine but women should always try" and "other women can do what they want but I HAVE to be feminine" and it's like I'm still being internally sexist, just cos I'm aiming it exclusively at myself doesn't mean I've grown out of it. Self crit is so hard and it feels like such a personally journey sometimes imo I think that's probably why the publicity of it all rubs me weirdly.

I can only imagine and while writing my post I couldn't help but think "for users this offended I'm sure some of them feel catharsis from their self crit even others don't" so I tried to not be too absolutist about what I thought so I'm glad you've said this.

Mmmm you've definitely convinced me of it staying around and agreed hopefully it can be more productive.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

Honestly every time I see a post on selfcrit I'm just kind of like "...OK?", so I can relate to this to some extent.

I can't really imagine myself posting to selfcrit any time soon. I am certainly going to be ignorantly wrong plenty a time, I'm going to cause offense plenty a time, but the way I generally handle causing offense is to apologize for the offense caused to the parties so offended, and the way I handle ignorance is to have faith that later behavior will demonstrate on its own any development of character. Should I ever feel the need to spill paragraphs over some error on selfcrit, then that critique must be of use for people in general — it must be something educational that is best taught with words, and with myself as the case study. The simple fact of reform does not warrant public broadcasting.

The actual posts on selfcrit, on the other hand, have tended to feel like self-flagellation carried out as a formality to show reform, coming across as disingenuous "virtue signaling" at worst, and just strange and uncomfortable at best. As you have said.

Sent from Mdewakanton Dakota lands / Sept. 29 1837

Treaty with the Sioux of September 29th, 1837

"We Will Talk of Nothing Else": Dakota Interpretations of the Treaty of 1837

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

I think you've put it a lot more concisely than my yapping in the post 💪

Like I waffle a lot cos I'm scared that if I don't try and vocalise every nuance I'll get dog piled so to be blunt and maybe a bit reductive: self crit doesn't feel like reform, it feels like public punishment/bullying behaviour/hazing and any catharsis from having confirmation someone has addressed their views feels soured by the public spectacle of it.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 47 minutes ago (1 children)

That "waffling" or "yapping" as you call it is very understandable, because there's different ways people will respond to that sort of anxiety of being misunderstood and "dog-piled", aren't there? I used to regularly meet with someone who stuttered a lot, you know, so I'd say I'm already fairly used to people taking a while to convey an idea that I would myself convey in much less time. So whatever side of myself that is bothered by such a petty thing, is very easily hushed by the more rational side that knows to be patient with different types of people with different anxieties.

So I don't think "yapping" is something that someone should be self-deprecating about, necessarily, because you'll take as long as you personally need to convey your ideas, right? But being self-deprecating is maybe itself an understandable product of that same anxiety, isn't it?

it feels like public punishment/bullying behaviour/hazing

Hmmmm, I would say that maybe a number of people feel like posting selfcrit is more "mandatory" than it really is. So I don't know if it's bullying behavior "per se", but if people end up feeling like there's expectations being placed upon them, that this is still something that should be addressed. But this is just the impression I get.

Sent from Mdewakanton Dakota lands / Sept. 29 1837

Treaty with the Sioux of September 29th, 1837

"We Will Talk of Nothing Else": Dakota Interpretations of the Treaty of 1837

[–] [email protected] 2 points 39 minutes ago

I am literally anxiety incarnate.

I don't even know where I inject it into my day to day life so my perception of self crit as an expectation I do worry is me being that white girl empath trope and then projecting my anxiety onto that situation.

Yeah bullying is maybe not the right word, it feels like the enforcement of a power dynamic in a social space like making examples of people but then I don't know who's more terminally online, hexbear or me for seeing that where maybe it is or isn't lmao.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Out if curiosity, Are you hyper empathetic? Just asking as i didn't feel the same way about the mod self-crit you're referencing here, and my empathy is projecting the possibility you are taking damage from reading those posts.

To be fair c/selfcrit hasn't been in my field of view since the upvote struggle session (that was posted to c/selfcrit right?). Speaking from the perspective of someone who doesn't seek out their content, i don't see the comm as problematic.

What i mean is, far's i know no one's forcing brainworm'd bears to confess in c/selfcrit for absolution. If someone feels like sharing mistakes in their thinking and the thought process they used getting there, it can only be good for people to write and people to read.

Sometimes writing it down is enough to make it make sense in your head, or maybe they want further criticism/validation of their thought process after feeling they were in the wrong.

Guess my long-winded short-point is since it's not a requirement it isn't a problem, and reading someone's else's thought process could even help other peeps see things in a new light.

Anecdotally: I've got told off here, told to self-crit, and while I did take the time to read and reread the best criticisms, really attack my brainworms (and cry ngl) no one ever told me i needed to share that journey with anyone.

Tone check, i like this post, your thoughts, and this different perspective even if i don't see it same as you :)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 52 minutes ago* (last edited 50 minutes ago) (1 children)

I don't know, tbh I'd never heard of that till just now. Maybe? It feels like me but also am I not just a bit of a narcissist main character hero complex who thinks she knows how people feel, assume she's right and runs with it and then talks about it? I also have negative confidence so I'll probably default to assuming it's a me problem. I worried about the above the whole time I was writing the post.

Full disclosure I think I did, like I don't find public displays fun but as I mentioned in another comment, self crit feels like a personal journey to me so that's probably the bias here that makes me feel how I feel about the comm and for me it just pops up in the local comms posts list occasionally and I'm like "oh God what did someone do now".

Yeah and honestly me talking stuff out in this thread is exactly that! It people genuinely feel it helps then who am I to say otherwise. I mentioned in a few other comments about how I worry having a signpost to reform kinda removes the personal initiative/drive/want to change that I think people need to actually self crit successfully but I recognise that's pure strawmanning.

That's fair, I think honestly if it helps then fair play. As long as people are feeling an expectation to do it then great. (She says like the inspector who came to check everything is up to board on hexbear).

Tone check: awwwh thank you and it's so nice to have chats on here, I'm not dependent on this site for socialising so it's no big if I leave but the idea of upsetting others and being seen as a bully makes me physically sick so it's nice to have chats on here without feeling scared that ill make a fool of myself.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 26 minutes ago* (last edited 26 minutes ago) (1 children)

I don't know, tbh I'd never heard of that till just now

here's a definition to get an idea if you haven't already looked it up:

The hyper-empathy syndrome is a profound emotional response where individuals deeply feel and sometimes even physically experience the emotions of those around them

link

I consider myself hyper-empathetic. I used to (still do sometimes) have physical responses watching embarrassing things happen in movies! They're not real whyahggfhrhbw (but also how do people enjoy embarrassment humor like "Meet the Parents"!?).

thinks she knows how people feel, assume she's right and runs with it

If that is what you do often, don't beat yourself up about it, a common pitfall of empaths is projection. I am really attuned to people around me for example but since i "feel" other's emotions so strongly it's easy to forget they are just mine. When i read your post i was "projecting" how I'd feel in your imagined place. If i got close it's still just guessing in the end.

Tone: rereading and now worried i'm being rude and over-explaining. But excited to talk about this as i usually just navel-gaze about it

[–] [email protected] 2 points 17 minutes ago

Honestly that is me, I feel physically sick when i see people embarass themselves and I feel sick and cringe for them as a easy example but I always thought that was normal for everyone? You telling me that me feeling people's grief and getting sad with them cos I can only imagine how hard it must be if I put myself in their shoes? Is that not just empathy? If you feel it that intensly thats a different thing? Omg that's so wild.

Literally!! And to compensate I try to remind myself of that all the time and then completely ignore the very obviously social cues because I'm like "no just because they seem angry doesn't mean they are, I'm just assuming their feelings again!!!!" And omg it's such a chore to be me lmao.

Tone: not at all it's nice and I'm learning too!

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

I just blocked the comm. I have no interest in reading anyone's self-crit. Site residents aren't my comrades, they're pseudonyms on the internet. Presumably it exists for the power users who feel differently.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 hours ago

I think I'll do the same, I try not to block anything if I can help it and just subscribe to ones I like but yeah.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (1 children)

I've never thought about this but this feels like a really good point. This site has a loooot of issues with it's user-friendliness to neurodivergent people and I guess this is another to throw on the pile. We really need a militant neurodivergent radical reconsideration of most of the site.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Fr and without tone it's a nightmare trying to tell if someone's angry or being ironic etc. I fucking hate it.

I regularly worry everyone hates me online because I can't tell their tone 🙃

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

I regularly worry everyone hates me online because I can't tell their tone

Well i think you're neat. Im ND too, thanks for being here.

Tone: honesty.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 hours ago

meow-hug hopefully i can extend how long it is before i disappoint everyone 💪

Tone: genuine but also irony poisoned