this post was submitted on 20 Jul 2023
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founded 1 year ago
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I should begin by mentioning that I am (was) a moderator of three subreddits: one large subreddit, one NSFW subreddit and a medical-related subreddit. After u/spez's calamitous AMA, I joined Lemmy and haven't looked back. I am really enjoying the Lemmy/KBin vibe. It is very much an alpha (almost beta) product and the ad free, corporate free, decentralized nature of the fediverse has a thrill of its own.

Over the past couple of months, Reddit has done everything it can to show its moderators that they are low-value and easily replaceable. They've done this by removing technical tools, killing off third party applications, crippling API changes and jaw-droppingly bad public relations. Heavily used products like /r/toolbox are no longer being actively developed. When Reddit API implements a breaking, non-backwards compatible change, that tool will also die.

Yet the moderators of Reddit continue to moderate. They stay and help Reddit build Reddit. They continue to work for free; to allow Reddit to make money off of their work despite being abused. When I see things like the comment section on this post, I no longer feel sorry for the Reddit moderators still on the site. I see them as a sad, sorry group who cling to the false hope of a corporate turnaround. They could leave Reddit. They should leave Reddit.

These moderators are in an abusive relationship with Reddit, Inc. I might understand the argument, "we built this community, we can't just abandon it". But would you give the same advice to someone else in an abusive relationship? I get that the analogy between the mods and the corp is an imperfect one, yet it is similar enough to be valid, in my opinion.

Moderating is really hard. It is hard and thankless and never-ending. Finding good moderators who can handle the marathon nature of the gig is incredibly difficult. If Reddit moderators were to delete their moderating bots, downgrade their automod "code" and dial back their modding efforts to 5 min/week or less, it would materially hurt Reddit as a product.

The sunk-cost fallacy is a real thing. If the Reddit mods understood this, they'd take their talents elsewhere. But as long as they continue to help Reddit build Reddit, one shouldn't feel sorry for them.

They could leave. I did and I've never been happier.

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[–] [email protected] 172 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

The abusive relationship is with Reddit, not the community they moderate. A more accurate analogy is tolerating the abusive person because you don't want to completely lost contact with many other people you care about just because of that one guy who they're still friend with. The answer then become less clear cut than just cut off the toxic person. It becomes a question of when the abusive person becomes toxic enough that even the prospect of keeping in touch with other people you care about isn't worth it any more. That is going to be different for everyone and there's no right answer as it completely depends on the person. It is still possible that someone misjudge and they'd be better off leaving earlier, but what that earlier point is still has to be decided first according to their own circumstances.

To illustrate my point. Some people believe it's the right thing to do to leave Reddit much earlier than this year, such as when they let /r/the_donald operated freely. In this case here because you decided to stay until 1-2 months ago, you are also part of the problem that "stayed and helped Reddit build Reddit".

I think this post simplified the situation in a way that misrepresented the motivation of some moderators.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 1 year ago

It’s like the mods are divorcing parents who has to deal with the toxic ex to take care of their children.

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[–] [email protected] 118 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

You want to hear something fucked up? After nearly 10 years in Reddit, one day I suddenly started receiving daily death threats and HEAVY bot spamming on this tiny little sub I was moderating. So naturally I reached out to the mod support sub for help. Then this bot/spammer started flooding my post on their sub which actually felt great—they were getting a taste of what I had been dealing with. The post ended up with well over 500 comments from this piece of shit. So instead of help me out, you know what they did? They banned me from the mod support subreddit.

I had a conversation with one of the admins who basically told me they don't care about death threats. Furthermore, this spammer had also admitted to murdering people. Again the admin didn't care. Till the day I left they were unable to stop this one person from creating hundreds, maybe even thousands of accounts and spamming tons of people including myself. A billion dollar company can't even control their own product. The bots literally own Reddit. Lol. Fuck them, all of them who stayed.

Here some proof: https://imgur.com/Hofqdh8 https://imgur.com/gallery/vJhZlwX

[–] [email protected] 51 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They don't even require email validation. I made dozens of burner accounts with the same email over the years. It's wild. They are like actively against controlling the bots. It's like Twitter, the bots inflate the numbers so they don't want to go after them.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)
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[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago

There was this guy, I think he called himself "killallwomen" with changing numbers. I received a death threat followed up by pictures of animal porn and gore. I actually didn't care that much. I understand your concerns and nobody should have to deal with this kind of shit. But I got so many death threats on Reddit over the years. Death threats from nazis, death threats from conspiracy theorists, death threats from CCP slaves, death threats from russian bots, death threats from trumpian cultists, death threats from a guy who thought I want to punch him for some reason, death threats from incels, OH THE INCELS! There are so many of them on Reddit.

I couldn't care even if I wanted. But not everyone feels the same and things I might find almost funny, could disturb others. So this killallwomen guy kept doing what he was doing and the counter got higher and higher. To the point he almost became a meme in some communities.

Did the admins care? Did they do anything to stop this behavior on their site? Of course they didn't.

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[–] [email protected] 63 points 1 year ago (7 children)

I shut down the my subreddit for old memes on Reddit and moved it to Lemmy. Then it blew up on Lemmy and the old ass memes spread to the other meme subreddits. (Sorry)

This is home now.

[email protected] is better than ever over here. Although it’s still full of stale ass memes.

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[–] [email protected] 63 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Same here.

After the infamous AMA, I made a post in my subreddit basically saying "peace out, I'm off to Lemmy. Good luck, everyone." Lucky for them, I'd set up a pretty robust automoderator over the years so that's still taking care of the majority of the moderating tasks I'd imagine.

I visited that post today and saw over 500 comments, each one by a mod and each one of them angry. Why they're still there, I have no idea.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Most won’t even consider changing their browsing habits due to the trouble involved in acclimating to anything new. There’s inertia.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I look at Reddit from time to time to check on the state etc but I deleted my account / comments etc … must say It is hard to break year long habits

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[–] [email protected] 59 points 1 year ago (3 children)

This is just the start. Once Reddit IPOs and we hear how many tens of millions spez made off the backs of mods and power users, more will start to question why they are doing unpaid labor just to make spez rich. There is a fundamental problem with trying to make bank on volunteer labor, and we're just starting to see it begin.

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[–] [email protected] 53 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Except for the veteran sub where I got perma banned for literally saying I don't like fascism, I never had many paths cross with mods.

Where I lost respect for them is when Reddit started telling them to open up or get replaced and most of them complied. I'd have some more empathy if it was at work where getting canned meant scrambling to pay bills - but we're talking about Reddit. They claim to stand for something but the second they're asked to give up anything for that belief they cave.

Psuedo interwebs powers just trump morals and values these days.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I was a mod that walked away. The fact that so few mods had the balls to call Reddit on their bluff is disappointing but totally expected to me.

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[–] [email protected] 49 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Communities can be rebuilt, as we've seen. There really is no excuse at this point for those mods to not leave and start rebuilding somewhere like Lemmy.

Reddit will never reverse course. Maybe their goal used to be aligned with ours, but now they're just a massive corporation chasing an ever growing profit.

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[–] [email protected] 48 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Honestly I stopped feeling bad for mods as soon as I saw a majority of them fold like a soggy napkin upon the first threat from the admins saying they'd remove mods who keep their subs private.

If I were a mod I would have kept it private until Reddit removed me. If all mods actually did that, Reddit would have been in big trouble since they'd effectively have to find new mods all at once for the entire site. Instead, most mods basically did Reddit a favor and lessened the impact substantially. Thanks mods!

I also don't feel bad for most Reddit users. Way too many of them were too ignorant to even understand what the protests were about. And a majority of them were yelling at mods to reopen and saying the protest was stupid just because they were okay with using the official mobile app

Unbelievable all around honestly. The entire thing was fucking embarrassing. We had one actual chance to win and everyone blew it.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I know it sounds pretentious as hell, but the majority of people are just idiots that can't be bothered to learn and educate themselves on anything....

Again, sounding pretentious and the ones smart enough to see the reddit bullshit and figure out lemmy are here now!

I sound like a prick, but it do!

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I haven't felt sorry for mods since the mods of a sub I'll not mention decided to stop the protest after some of them got banned, because "we don't want the sub to fall into the hands of randoms".

Spineless behavior. Just move and rebuild the community elsewhere. It has been more than a month and the ship has sailed. Even if Reddit decides to backpedal for now, they'll try again in the future.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

Totally they could just say “we are moving to X” and continue the work there. How hard is it? It’s time consuming but as a team it’s doable

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[–] [email protected] 46 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

This maybe a controversial opinion here but many of those moderators also suffer from a big problem of powertripping. They just don't want to leave that position.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago (5 children)

i'm on the Board of Directors of a nonprofit in a realm that has a lot of drama. I fucking hate it. The reason I stay is because leaving means the drama fucks won, to the detriment of all. Not saying my situation is identical to mods on reddit, just that people often have reasons for staying in leadership other than power.

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 1 year ago

For me it was mostly about accessibility, because reddit essentially told disabled people they aren't welcome. So ... bye

But also the attempt at monetizing FUCKING EVERYTHING is pissing me off. I miss the internet where most things were free. I am not going to pay a subscription to read an aggregation of links. If I have to pay I am going to choose something more fun over social media.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 year ago

Im so glad I left as soon as I recognised how much they don’t care about mods. I was a mod at several subs and fuck that. I’m happier here. Remember. Spez made it clear that so long it doesn’t hurt their revenue, he will do whatever he cares to do without listening to the clients.

[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 year ago

Jumped ship when Spez wasn't caving to the protests. I was mostly a lurker on Reddit and posted a little but now with the state of our social media it's better to get out and have a voice. And this place is nice

[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago

I’ve never modded but have been on Reddit 15yrs 11mo as of the Apollo shutdown. At this point I’m in the 16yr club. It’s wild how badly they are acting toward mods.

Frankly I’m not a mod lover or hater, with the exception of AskHistory. It was so clear how the mods there truly made the community. Haters will say they had a heavy hand, but it kept the quality remarkably high.

I’m middle age so I’ve seen a full decade of forum shitposting and flamwars before Reddit even existed. The fact that Reddit can’t see the value of the community that build “their platform” is beyond tonedeaf, it’s just straight up arrogant.

I’m sure Reddit will stay far bigger than lemmy for a long time, but that’s fine. Maybe better. The old forums were microscopic by modern social media standards but in hindsight the conversations with active users were more real and not just some random username that might as well have been anon.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Y'know, I read that entire thread, and it really doesn't come across as you're representing it.

The mods are spitting rage over there. They're outright insulting every aspect of reddit. I feel like focusing on the idea that because they made a post there they must still be active users is a stretch and unfair.

Of course, we know too many people still use the site. But it's hard for me to get on board with a blanket "fuck the mods" based on that thread alone.

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago

I was moderating, this whole thing started, and I moved over to lemmy, I don't get why people are still continuing to do loads of work on a site that hates them with an even more toxic environment than before, not really for me.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago

I really, really wanted all the mods to quit in protest. I think the site would go up in flames within a day of people finding out it was open season. Like, not able to recover, up in flames.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

Every other day, I get over how mad I was about the whole spez thing, and just focus on bettering our community and Lemmy in general.

But then they do something again that immediately remind me how much of an asshole he is. Last week, it was them taking out the coins and awards. Now this week, it's introducing r/Places like nothing happened and we're all friends again. Fuck him.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Your argument is strange, since I definitely feel bad for people in abusive relationships and have understanding for how difficult it might be to leave one.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Come on, we are stretching the analogy here. Reddit isn't beating them. Reddit isn't isolating them. Reddit isn't going to explode in anger if they find out you're flirting with another social media website.

It's a website. I was on there for 15 years and I left with a snap of a finger. It's not that serious.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago

The thing that is different is that they really CAN leave. Reddit has nothing over them. Reddit doesn't have their important documents, control of their finances. Reddit isn't physically present, so they aren't physically endangered. And yet they are STILL reacting exactly how an abuse victim.

This ought to be a lesson for all of us that ANY of us can fall into that pattern and not judge people who are.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The majority of the "good" mods like yourself have already bailed, I'd wager. Only the bad ones, who use moderation to feel a sense of power and control over others to replace their own lack of power and control, will remain after a couple more months, at which point you'll see Reddit truely begin to falter. Those are the ones clinging to hope and power, even though they lose more of it by the second.

Welcome to Lemmy. It's fun here.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago

what i dont get are those members that demand opening of subreddit and claimed that some of the moderators are power hungry, forgetting that they are moderating for free, and failed to understand that it will become harder without the APIs.

Truthfully i wish bots will demolish their favorite subreddit

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago
[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago

I moderated a top-15 subreddit for over 5 years. reddit got so corporate so long ago that the 80% of the mods left are just on some kind of power trip. So no, I won't ever feel bad for them.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (5 children)

So many reddit mods were angry power-hungry assholes. I don't feel sorry for them just as much as I don't feel sorry for reddit's hopeventual collapse. I can't count how many times I had BS moderation enacted, then when I was perfectly civil, usually just asking for basic clarification as to why something was removed, was instantly silenced from further communication with the mods with threats of potential removal from participation in the sub or reddit entirely. I am not alone in this experience.

I run a discord server and freely explain to user that they are welcome to disagree with me, openly and freely, as while I run this unofficial community server about an event I don't own/operate,

The same is for a reddit mod, especially for broad topics and localities.

Unfortunately I do see the potential for similar behavior here in the fediverse. I can't say I know how to address it entirely, but I know I can act the way that's fair to the community of which I am only an administrator, not a ruler nor creator.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

Moderators should just stop working for free on platform that doesn't value them.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I sort of understand that they are a necessary evil but I really get tired of seeing stuff like this

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Your account has been permanently suspended for breaking the rules.

Your accounts are now permanently suspended due to multiple, repeated violations of Reddit's content policy.

This is an automated message; responses will not be received by the Reddit admins.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

comment removed by moderator

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

Im a moderator of subreddits, and i can say i agree.

the moderator of r/onlyfans is a good example, it was repurposed to be about fans, but in order to "protest" he decided to allow porn back in, and despite the users constantly being extreamly angry about this for over a month, he had refused to dissalow porn, while he did tighten the rules on it slightly recently, they appear to go totally uninforced with porn bots slowly taking over the community.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

I agree, well said. Shame on Reddit for what it did, but shame on them for putting up with it.

I loved Reddit but it was slowly getting worse, then suddenly way worse. My time with Reddit died with Apollo.

Lemmy isn’t Reddit, but it definitely itches that scratch for me. Like fuck if I ever give Reddit any traffic myself anymore. Bridge burned, I have no problem walking away.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I used to mod about 3 dozen big/medium Subreddits too. It was worth it though, because through it I somehow found my girlfriend of 1 year. Drama was a real headache in those places.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

Mods get all the girls 😔

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

One of the gaming subs mods were acting like they couldn't even be part of the strike because they were "providing an important service" and another one pcgaming I think offered what was basically token resistance.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Oh I don't, don't you worry.

The admin are trash over on reddit. The CEO is trash. Lots of the mods in the big subs are trash too though.

Any of the mods that complained and protested but are still on the site are gutless and just don't want to lose their mod power.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Moderating for free is a mental illness.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago

I don't do it for free thank you very much! I pay to do it :P

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