this post was submitted on 05 Nov 2024
1199 points (98.7% liked)
196
16509 readers
2252 users here now
Be sure to follow the rule before you head out.
Rule: You must post before you leave.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
This reminds me of the Heard v Depp case, on the two X chromosomes subreddit there was this long ass comment from someone who experienced abuse and said she wasn't the "perfect victim" because she fought back and hurt her abuser back and how because of this it was harder to get away from her abuser.
And when I asked how does she know that in Heard v Depp case it isn't Depp who is the imperfect victim? Because he had multiple partners testifying to his character of being a kind man etc, while Heard had the opposite (AFAIK).
All I got was silence and downvotes.
And the men's lib sub is the best we will get when it comes to men's issues and that one sucks too.
The mens rights sub originally was a good place for dudes who were getting taken to the cleaners in divorce court, losing full custody of the kids just because the mom wanted em, and even an instance iirc of the wife taking the dog only to have em put down later.
Then it slowly mutated into a watered down version of incels
I mean that's bound to happen. If the main thing that draws you to a space is that you're all being abused by women in one way or another, then it's probably going to end up being a place to hate on women and therefore attract women haters like incels.
Men's lib should be a space where we fight the injustices imposed on men by the dominant hierarchy. Like the fact that we're assumed to be worse at caring for our kids than their mothers and that this assumption disadvantages us in court. Or the fact we're assumed to be abusers and that being a victim somehow makes us be seen as lesser men and automatically deserving of the abuse we get (like in this comic). Or the fact that we're assumed to BE/BE PART OF the dominant hierarchy and therefore can't be victims of it, even though we can lose our "manlyness" through something as simple or human as crying when we're sad.
Only with this mindset can we channel our victimisation into positive action rather than towards hatred of women.
Hive minds are strong remember to not rate your opinion based on how many up votes it gets
what then am i supposed to rate it on? /hj
I once got a -28xx on Reddit for a comment I still don't think was even interesting. From what I understand, of their scoring algorithm at the time, that means I had a lot more downvotes than that.
Have you heard of battered woman syndrome? Do you understand the court case that lead to it?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francine_Hughes
The reason is that most men are physically stronger than most women and also we live in a heteropatriarchy that caters to men first. There was clearly mutual abuse by both partners, and both Amber and Johnny are raging narcissists- but Johnny has a bad past too, including a questionable relationship with Winona Ryder when she was young and extreme drug use that made him erratic. It's impossible to know who was abusing who or what was actually happening.
But I will say the leading expert on domestic violence, Lundy Bancroft, asserts that women are almost never the abuse initiator in relationships. Most serial killers, most violent offenders, are men. So yeah, women will typically blame the man because it's usually men.
I don't usually comment in these types of gender discussions, so I don't really know why I am commenting this. I hope you don't take me badly.
You say that we live in a society that caters to men first, which I unfortunately agree in general, adding later that, due to the usual prepertrators of the hideous crimes you listed being men (which I also agree), women usually jump to the conclusion that the man is the abuser. Knowing that, couldn't it be said that in this specific situation society caters to women rather than men? After all, you can't say "most abusers are men, therefore this abuser is a man." Each person is an individual. From a purely mathematical perspective, it indeed makes sense to suspect the man first, but that being the case, wouldn't bringing up that first point be:
a. True, but in matters unrelated to the discussion? b. Contradicting what you say in the end?
And therein lies my question to you. I am not that informed in these gender-related affairs and I am sorry if anything I said was wrong/insensitive, but I still ask this question, for no reason other than probably being sleepy. Thank you, and I apologize if I misunderstood anything. I did not watch the show that was mentioned, I really just wanted to ask about that specific part.
No, society still caters to men. Who are the ones responding to domestic violence calls - other men, the police, who also engage in these same crimes.
I had an ex throw me to the ground and lock me outside in the rainin my pajamas. When I called 911, the police came, and I was crying and bleeding under my pajamas from the fall. The officer immediately threatened to arrest me, saying women fake it all the time, and if he found any marks on him or if his story was different, I would go to jail. I was 19. I hadn't touched him, he had just exploded in a rage because we broke up and couldn't agree about moving out. It didn't even occur to me that I wouldn't get help and also might be hurt. I declined having him arrested while I actively bled from what he did, I didn't show the police the marks, and then i became $2k in debt because I wanted to do anything to break the lease (and could've done if for free had he been arrested).
Society doesn't help abuse victims of any gender. The people who enforce the laws are abusers. Lawyers are often abusers. Judges are typically men who make up abusers. Look at the judges Trump put in place and imagine women trying to justify their abortion from their rapes to them. Like yes the patriarchy is systemic AGAINST WOMEN in this way. Intersectionality exists, and does not erase this real fact
Eta: After the election, fuck all the men who downvoted this post especially this line:
Thank you for your answer. I see your point. I was thinking more about the specific situation described in the comic, and not one where it had already escalated to the point where police and the justice system got involved, and I have to wonder what kind of life the cop lived through to reach the conclusion that "women fake it all the time." But even worse than there being cops like this is the fact that even if it came to light that they were like this there is a high chance they would not be punished at all.
Case in question, in my country, a cop fatally shot a guy because he "looked like he had a knife." That's already disgusting enough, but as far as I know, he wasn't going to be punished until big protest erupted. It's a sistematic issue, and unfortunately, there's not much we can do aside from voting.
With trump being elected, this issue is sure to become even worse. And since trump seems to be specifically against women's freedom, it will probably get even harder for women to defend themselves and bring the perpetrator to justice.
But I sincerely hope that a situation like that doesn't happen again, to you or anyone you know. Good luck in the future, and stay safe.
As a sidenote, and don't answer if you don't want to, why did you decline his arrest? Was there any chance that could turn against you?
Also, I want to tell you that in the US, the only thing that matters is if something is legally enforceable. That's it. If it's not legally enforceable, then there will never be any justice for the victim. So yeah, it's actually MORE relevant that official bodies explicitly are against women because it shows that we literally don't have as much power. That's fucked up and a miscarriage of justice and rights. And now that Trump was just elected, he will appoint even more judges and police and enact more antiwoman and for-rape laws including limiting abortion access, limiting divorce access, and limiting birth control access.
In areas where some of these laws have taken place already, teen girls have already birthed their fathers incest rape baby in their closet and then stabbed it with a knife after.
But yeah, pointing out women experience abuse disproportionately worse than most men, at the hands of men, is really bad I guess. Because it's more important that we focus on men's pain than women's literal enslavement and erosion of rights. And then men wonder why 4B exists and why women can't talk to them anymore to explain the basics of Feminism. They downvote you when their feelings are hurt, tell you how stupid you are as a woman to talk about these political things, and then go and vote for fucking Trump en masse and kill us all to climate change. Thanks, guys!
I declined his arrest because he was very poor and I thought the prison system would ruin his life. I felt bad for him. Because the patriarchy demands empathy for men at all times, I guess.
Eta: you are profoundly empathetically deficient if you downvote someone's abuse story like this. He didn't deserve my empathy but I gave it to him out of kindness. And you all can't even extend it to me to just not downvote? This is why women hate men. You all GET THE MAJORITY OF THE BENEFIT and you STILL treat women like trash and act like the victim! Lol! And then you all vote for fucking Trump while playing the victim and gaslighting women that women have the benefit in court when you shitheads are the ones stacking it. I fucking hate men. The only reason I'd get pregnant by a man is so I would have something of yours to kill in an abortion.
In the US, violent offenders are also disproportionately performed by black folk (including being an actual majority for homicide and robbery). I suspect you don't think we should make assumptions about black folks being violent though? I doubt you think when someone is killed we should simply assume the killer is black because the killer is usually black?
And note, I'm not arguing that we should - I'm using it as an illustrative point of why this line of thinking is bullshit.
The trend for violence between genders is not only worldwide, it's also over thousands of years. Especially if we include war* and describe toxic masculinity as a classic soldier (emotionless, disposable, not allowed to be an independent or critical thinker, narcissism to deal with fear, projection to deal with unhappiness).
The reason black men are disproportionately charged in the US with crimes is due to white supremacy, including within the police force, which has been information in the public knowledge since BLM protests so stop playing stupid.
You can make that argument for things like nonviolent drug charges and the like (and that's why you're saying "crimes" and not "violent crimes" or "homicide", and to be clear I absolutely agree with you that police are more likely to arrest black folks for nonviolent crimes than whites), but I specifically was pointing to violent crimes and in particular homicide. The "fun" thing about homicide is that it's hard to invent homicides whole cloth, and you can't just plant a homicide in someone's car to "discover" when you search them or w/e. And when you get into homicide, in most cases perpetrator and victim are the same race.
So in your scenario how would police white supremacy cause the effect shown in the stats? Do the police just ignore dead white folks, because they are more likely to have been killed by other whites? Do they send extra effort investigating the deaths of black folks, because they were likely killed by other blacks? Is there a secret, nationwide conspiracy whereby every law enforcement institution secretly murders black folks and then manufactures evidence to frame other black folks for it at a later date, and everyone from officers to coroners to forensic techs to prosecutors, judges and jurors are all in on it?
But to double down on my original argument, when you start looking at criminal justice stats, usually when there's a racial gap that harms black folks there's also a sex gap that harms men. Your argument that racial gaps are definitely just bigotry but men are just violent monsters who should be (for example) disproportionately killed by police, be more likely to be prosecuted when arrested, be more likely to be arrested for nonviolent crimes, should receive higher bail for the same charge and longer sentences for the same charge, etc, etc? And you don't see the bigotry in saying that?
Yes, police have actively been using black people as scapegoats for homicide that the police carry out for decades. There used to be a code police would put on bodies in the 80s and before - "DNE" do not investigate, indicating a homeless person or sex worker who probably will never be identified. However, it has been found, particularly with LAPD, that they were using this indiscriminately and many cops through the years were found to have covered their own murders with this code. It's so common I first heard about it on fucking Forensic Files. Just like one of the most common demographics for arsonists is fireman, police seem to be a very common demographic for violent offender. WELL above normal for violent crimes for police, and that's with the entire judicial system helping them out, immunity, etc. And you think that this ultra violent police force is accurately arresting and attributing those crimes? Lol
Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who yes tortured people in Guantanamo, wasn't arrested for violent crimes. They were state approved. Public shooters, school shooters, going postal shooters, were all typically white male shooters (the one black shooter I can think of was a cop).
White male violence is simply allowed at greater levels than anyone else's violence. Because we live in a white supremacist heteropatriarchy.
"DNE" is the opposite of inventing evidence to prosecute black folks for killings secretly done by police - it's institutionally telling everyone to drop the ball on this one. For "DNE" to be a significant part of what the statistics show while your beliefs remains also true, cops would have to be going around killing and "DNE"ing white folks (which seems backwards from what you'd expect from people driven by white supremacy) and/or have an elaborate conspiracy all the way along the chain from cops to coroners to forensic techs to prosecutors to judges to jurors to frame black folks for murders of other black folks.
Because again, for homicide and race statistics to be what they are because of white supremacist policing there either have to be a bunch of white killings not being counted as homicides at all, or a bunch of totally fabricated frame jobs for killings of blacks fabricated in a conspiracy that is shockingly tight lipped despite being utterly massive (something like a third of all US homicide to bring black homicide rates in line with share of population) and spanning decades.
More likely is what you find when you dig deeper - a huge proportion of homicide in the US is gang related and young black men are the primary gang recruitment demographic for a mix of cultural and mostly economic reasons.
Yes, public mass shooters tend to be white men, typically young ones. There's about 25,000 homicides per year in the US. Since the 60s, public mass shootings have accounted for a total of about 1,500 of those (not 1,500 per year, 1,500 total). And those shooters either die on the scene because the whole point was to kill themselves and take a bunch of innocents with them, or get tried and convicted.
You'll note I said public mass shooters instead of just mass shooters, because the difference is relevant. It's a trick of the statistics - when talking about how bad mass shootings are, people will point to Sandy Hook, Columbine, Aurora, Pulse, etc but when talking about how often they happen will include any shooting with three or more casualties. If you limit your talk of mass shootings to only include shootings that were not limited to a single private residence (such as home invasions and family annihilators, which tend to have different demographics) and were not done as part of some other criminal activity (a lot of those are gang or cartel related, and have different demos as a result), then what you're left with is mostly young white guys in dire need of mental health assistance who decided to take a bunch of people with them when they killed themselves (as in Columbine) and the remainder are mostly white supremacists who think they're acting to defend the white race (as in Christchurch) or some similar bullshit.
Yes, white supremacy for decades means that the police force, a former KKK offshoot, has been killing and scapegoating black men since their inception. This is known. Literally it's the history of the police. Lol.
https://naacp.org/find-resources/history-explained/origins-modern-day-policing
And the CIA and FBI have never had anything to do with gang violence here, the crack epidemic, or gang violence south of the border, right? So white men cant possibly be responsible for the gang violence in this country either /s.
Men are violent. They are violent to each other and other men. Per Robert Sapolsky, Cordelia Fine, many neuroscientists, and myself, this is a socialized trait and not biological destiny. But it is definitely a trait. Black men are not more violent than white men, especially when you look at global context and the context of those studies which are a snapshot of systemic racism that has been going on in the US and globally for hundreds of years now.
I don't think you grasp the scale of what you're arguing. For the stats to really mean that black folk are no more likely to commit homicide than white folk, a majority of homicides black folks are charged with (to the tune of thousands of homicides every year since we've started keeping the stats) would have to be frame jobs. Every level of the criminal justice system would have to be in on the manufacture of evidence and frames, nationwide, for decades, with no leaks. No lab tech coming out and admitting to falsifying hundreds of tests because he was told those test needed to show particular black people were guilty even though they weren't, no officers, prosecutors or judges with a guilty conscience. Hell, Kamala Harris would have had to play an instrumental role in intentionally framing at least a couple dozen black folks every year she was part of the criminal justice system.
Modern police descending from slave catchers and constables a century and a half ago is not proof of a massive nationwide conspiracy to frame thousands of black folks for homicide every year. No more so than Margret Sanger's racism proves that Planned Parenthood is a white supremacist eugenics program.
OK well that's your opinion, it's wrong and racist but it's yours