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Tlaib refuses to apologize for blaming Israel for Gaza hospital blast, attacks Biden
(abcnews.go.com)
this post was submitted on 19 Oct 2023
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politics
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I'm sorry but I read what you say and it sounds like you and others are taking the easy path of calling for peace while not acknowledging that there is no real way for there to be peace. How can Israel have peace when there is an organization that unequivocally demands their complete destruction. Every call for ceasefire seems simultaneously a call that Israel returns to the status quo of 100s of rockets launched per day and the threat of another invasion and raping of their civilians. What would you have them do? They're a sovereign nation, they simply won't roll over and die because it's convenient for the Middle East. I have so far refused to argue for ceasefire on the belief that Israel is defending itself from an existential threat. I continue to think that's the case and I don't see what's changed. Everyone abhorrs innocents dying, but on my view, a call for ceasefire is a call that Israeli innocents die in place of Palestinians. If innocents are going to die either way, I don't understand why we should not spend that blood trying to destroy Hamas. In the long run, when the numbers are tallied, it may truly be that this would be the quickest way to minimize the death of innocents, yet there are those who offer no solution and demand Israel stop their actions for the sake of innocents, yet make no acknowledgment that many more innocents may end up dying in the long run as a result. If I care about innocents, I don't see how I can support that right now.
Apartheid would never end in South Africa. Until it did. Peace would never exist in Northern Ireland. Until it did. The cold war would never end. Until it did. The belief that the situation is unresolvable is the problem
Again, one side has a stated charter to destroy all Jews and Israel? What ceasefire or peace do you think you will accomplish here? Why must Israel bear the burden of allowing endless attacks and endless threats of attacks?
Israel controls the land and the Palestinians don't have a seat at the table. Those are the preconditions for brewing up a deep rooted terrorist organization.
It's strange how the terrorists never seem responsible for their own actions.
You don't understand what I'm saying. Which makes sense in the context of terrible trauma.
Hamas is awful and should be excised. But if these regions and classes of people continue to be subjugated and unrepresented in the government that governs them, and forcibly impoverished, of course the worst of them will be the most emboldened.
If you hate terrorism, stop it before it starts. Do a simple root cause on this one seriously.
That would require occupying and re-educating Gaza. As soon as Israel even tries, the whole world will react by screaming that they're Nazis and this was their plan all along. I agree education is the way to stop terrorism, but it has to come from Palestinians choosing to love their children so much that they give them a better future through that education, where their children will be turned from terrorism. But, once there are terrorists, the path is done. They are responsible for their actions, it doesn't matter about the past anymore.
Re-educating them in what way?
Controlling their education to teach them objective history and teach them why peace is a better life than hatred and war.
Palestine <> Hamas Should we treat Israel like we would the hill top youth?
I never said they were the same. In fact, in all my messages, I'm explicitly against drawing that similarity. Israel has declared war on Hamas, whoever and wherever they are.
I appreciate IDF bombs only striking Hamas fighters and leaving innocent Palestinians who are not being bombed, terrorised, starved, facing mass eviction and collective punishment (a war crime)
Again, you have no solution. Your calls for ceasefire is simultaneously a call for Israel to return to the status quo of hundreds of rockets launched at them per day and the threat of constant terrorism festering just outside their borders. Israel won't do that.
Nice strawman you built up there. Dealing with Hamas doesn't require indiscriminate bombing of Gaza. Most people in Gaza are not Hamas. Likewise, dealing with Hamas doesn't require starving the populace, nor using white phosphorous nor indulging in collective punishment - again, all war crimes. If you think that Israel has a right to commit war crimes then we have nothing to discuss.
Who said the bombings were indiscriminate? Did I ever say most Gazans were Hamas? Have all the Gazans starved or are they still there? You can be outraged all you want, but Israel is going to defend itself from an existential threat at its borders. So long as Hamas remains in Gaza, Israel is going to seek them out with prejudice. It doesn't matter how innocent the people are. Hamas is launching rockets at Israel from their kitchen window. Israel doesn't have to let themselves be destroyed for Palestinians, like so many wish.
Are the 5000 Palestinians killed so far all Hamas? The bombing is indiscriminate. That Gaza has no food supplies is a fact. Using white phosphorous is a fact. Collective punishment by the idf is a fact. These are war crimes and you are justifying war criminals. We're done. I will not discuss with someone who justifies war crimes (for the record the actions of Hamas are equally unjustifiable for the same reason)
No, but you have no idea how many of those deaths were indirectly caused by Hamas, for example, you don't know how many died because they listened to Hamas propaganda and refused to evacuate, or they died because they didn't evacuate and Hamas used their kitchen to fire rockets at Israel (war crime). You're pretending the bombings are indiscriminate but you have no access to Israel's military intelligence, so you must be going out of your way to view Israel poorly. You can be done with the conversation, but that just proves what I said from the very start, that those who call for peace for Palestinians are fundamentally ignoring the problems involved and essentially asking that Israel roll over and die. No, Israel exists and, so long as it does, it will defend its sovereignty. Both sides are bad, is a lazy copout, and a poor way to defend terrorism.
You're the one making excuses for war crimes
You realize launching missiles from civilian infrastructure is a war crime? And do you realize killing civilians is not a war crime if you are striking a legitimate military target?
Edit: You realize taking civilian hostages is a war crime?
I'm not claiming otherwise. Hamas are a terrorist organisation and should be dismantled. I feel the same about Likud and for very similar reasons. It's pretty fucking weird to assume that someone criticising Israel's actions against the Palestinians means they support Hamas.
As I've said from the start, what I'm criticizing is that those who call for ceasefire or for free Palestine, are implicitly ignoring the effects of the outcome they're calling for. What happens to the Palestinian people if they lay down their arms? Peace or war? What happens to Israel if they lay down their arms? Peace or war?
Those who call for peace in the face of an enemy sworn to kill all Jews and destroy Israel, these people are not calling for peace at all. They are rallying against Israel and demanding its destruction. You have no solution to offer for the problem of Hamas, yet you insist Israel allow them to continue to exist, knowing that they will simply plan more attacks in the future. You do not want peace.
"The Palestinian people" haven't taken up arms. Hamas has. Again you fail to distinguish the two and that is the problem
No, I pretty explicitly call out Hamas, it's all their in my comment. Run away if you want. You realize Hamas is Palestinian?
Blocked
For fucks sake. We didn't bomb all the Irish for the existence of the fucking IRA. Piss off you fucking war crime apologist