u/Kingtucanphlab - originally from r/GenZhou
Under Chinese rule, the life expectancy of Tibetans increased. It is an autonomous zone. It's quite productive. It is no long under the slave rule of the Dali Lama. He admitted he owned slaves and "pwomises" that he would install a democratic government upon his return and free his slaves.
this post was submitted on 05 Mar 2022
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u/yungvibegod2 - originally from r/GenZhou
I’m pro China, but this is a weak argument. This is the same shit colonialists said when they colonized countries (not saying what China is doing is Colonialism, just your argument is close to the “white mans burden” type argument).
u/noelho - originally from r/GenZhou
How was it close to white man burden argument?
u/yungvibegod2 - originally from r/GenZhou
Colonizers said they uplifted and increased standard of living and liberated people from tribal societies etc.
u/greenslime300 - originally from r/GenZhou
Colonizers said whatever would make themselves feel better about exploiting the land, resources, and labor of the people they colonized. Their motivation for "liberating" people was always exploitation. China didn't do that with Tibet.
u/all-thirty-four - originally from r/GenZhou
Well, this is why China doesn't recognize either Crimea as Russian, or Donetsk/Luhansk as independent republics.
Donetsk and Luhansk are areas which didn't agree with the Euromaidan revolution in 2014, hence they started their separatist movement.
Now about taiwan, tibet, and hk: The fundamental principle of decolonization is that the only people who should have a say in what goes on in a country are the people of that country. Taiwan is the unfinished relic of the Chinese Civil War, which must have a resolution. The only reason they are de-facto independent now is the US propping them up. The US has no right to say what goes on in China.
HK was returned to China in 1997 from British colonization.
Tibet was historically a tributary state to China, it is governed as an autonomous region. PLA liberated it in 1950, you only need to look into how the serfs were treated in feudal tibet to give a justification (warning: nsfl)
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
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u/Professional-Way1833 - originally from r/GenZhou
We do talk about Tibet before China liberated them.
Slavery.
Cope, motherfucker.
u/NighttimePoltergeist - originally from r/GenZhou
Yooo this dude's entire account is just writing essays about Tibet over and over and over. Some real CIA psyop shit
u/shanyangren - originally from r/GenZhou
Ok, it's gonna be a long one.
"Self determination" is only a necessity for oppressed people.
In Ukraine, Russians in the Donbas were concerned about systematic oppression under groups that liked Bandera, an ethno nationalist who wanted a racially pure Ukraine, so they declared independence.
If you take, for example the USA, native people, black people and latin people are systematically oppressed outside of the normal oppression experienced by proletariat living in a capitalist society. White people are not systemically oppressed.
If you take, for example, Scottish people living in the UK, they face no systematic oppression, the system is not specifically set up to oppress them, whereas the system is specifically set up to oppress Irish people. Hence why British MLs (atleast proper ones) don't support Scottish independence, but support Irish independence.
As such, it is reasonable, in my opinion, to support the independence of groups who would be targeted, and support the unification of groups who would not be targeted. Taiwan, Tibet, Xinjiang, are not (or would not) be oppressed under the PRC. Thus, independence is not needed.
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
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u/shanyangren - originally from r/GenZhou
How?
Having roads, railways, electricity, hospitals built? Their language and culture preserved as opposed to dominated and commodified like in other Asian countries? With 95% of children in Tibet learning Tibetan as a language in school?
How, exactly, is Tibet being oppressed?
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
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u/shanyangren - originally from r/GenZhou
Infrastructure has nothing to do with being oppressed
Yes, it does. Infrastructure (or the lack thereof) is used to control people. If you do not have roads, hospitals, electricity, railways, it's impossible to be free.
Is culture just language?
No, I used language as an example. People in Tibet are completely free to practice whatever religion they want, eat whatever food they want, dress however they want, sing whatever songs and read whatever books they want (fun fact: the PRC banned the exact same amount of books as the USA since 1949).
They went so far to kidnap the Panchen Lama
Not an example of systemic oppression. One bad thing is not an analysis of the rights that normal people enjoy.
Tibet is consistently rated as one of the most oppressed regions on Earth
By who? The CIA?
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
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u/Tashathar - originally from r/GenZhou
Your vacant mind is revealed in that first line. Keeping the infrastructure of a region up-to-date is the best way to allow it to develop, and its inverse, letting it rot away to keep the region underdeveloped is one of the simplest and most frequent tools of oppression.
The rest I'm not touching, you're clearly infatuated with the brutal slavers and theocrats of a bygone era.
u/all-thirty-four - originally from r/GenZhou
those poor serfs, they aren't getting their hands and legs cut off, or their skin used as ornaments
u/aimixin - originally from r/GenZhou
Not every situation is the same. I feel like you're thinking in "eternal principles." Stop that. You have to evaluate everything in context, not based on eternal principles. Even Lenin explicitly said self-determination of nations is not an eternal principle but has to be evaluated in context.
Independence is good, if the people support it, and this support is genuine and grassroots. Independence is not good if the people don't support it, in Tibet is a very small minority, or if it was cultivated from the top-down through brainwashing and propaganda and killing off opposition, propped up by a foreign power ten thousand kilometers away with no connection to the history or culture of the region.
Even in Taiwan it's not a majority. It is in fact not even 1/3rd. And that's after decades of trying to cultivate this from the top-down. It's likely even far far less in Tibet. People find tiny groups of independence protestors and pretend it means everyone in Tibet wants to declare independence. I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find Californians who are pro-independence too. It means nothing.
DPR and LPR are very different. They had popular uprisings that took over government buildings and then held referendums to secede which is legal according to Ukrainian law. They did not want to be part of a new government which formed undemocratically after the Banderite coup. The Banderite regime would then start massacring them over the course of 8 years, the Ukrainian government itself saying 14,000 people have died in the conflict.
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
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u/aimixin - originally from r/GenZhou
You have anything to back that up?
I just did. Tibet doesn't even have de facto independence like Taiwan has, meaning it does not have a regime to brainwash them to hate China from the top-down for decades. The idea they would have a larger independence movement is obviously absurd.
Is that why the Chinese need to keep a militant and authoritative presense against Tibetans?
So you support the liberation of New York from the militant NYPD regime?
It's sort of hard to find groups in Tibet since it's banned to even think of such things in Tibet. But I guess those protests and riots since the 200o's mean nothing.
Are you saying protests were legal up until the 2000s then made illegal after? Genuine question. Maybe I missed this.
Oh and the self immolation that happend a few days ago.
Some random guy sets himself on fire and now the whole territory needs to become an independent country? lmao, you're quite the comedian.
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
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u/aimixin - originally from r/GenZhou
No you didn't. You just made an assumption without any backing to it.
lmao the cope is strong, can't respond to arguments so you just pretend they don't exist.
Of course not, as China invaded and annexed Tibet.
Do you believe Abraham Lincoln invaded and annexed the Confederate States of America? The comparison has a lot of similarities.
- Both were never legally recognized as independent.
- Both existed as de facto independent for only a very short period of time during a civil war.
- Both had a slave-based systems.
It doesn't need one. China does it for them.
You realize you saying this just backs up my claim, right?
Larger than who? To say there would be a small movement in Tibet, is the absurd claim.
Then show evidence of it. You literally just stated that you believe the PRC is "brainwashing" them, yet you want me to believe that Tibet has a larger independence movement than Taiwan? lmao
The NYPD doesn't oppress New Yorkers. Militant doesn't equal oppressive.
"it's only militant and oppressive when Asians have police"
mask off
Nope, jsut an arbitrary date.
Yet you stated that the lack of protests is because it is banned yet then point to 2000s protests. Contradicting yourself.
But we can talk about how China had to close off Tibet in the late 80's and had to cancel the last fact finding mission of the Dalai Lama because it caused too much Tibetan nationalism and Tibetans started to revolt. As one Chinese general stated, "20 years of progress was wasted in days".
Source?
Of course not, there's been more than 120.
Based. Let the far-right nationalists burn themselves to death.
Most people aren't willing to set themselves on fire. Given that Tibetans aren't allowed to speak out, write about, or organize any such protests; this is a dramatic way to do such.
For gullible simpletons who see "extreme" and think "that must mean it's correct" lmao. Next you'll be saying we should support ISIS because "most people aren't willing to blow themselves up."
You're hilarious man. Keep going. Great comedy.
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
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u/Professional-Way1833 - originally from r/GenZhou
Here's the thing. You are just making claims.
No evidence.
You ignore what Tibet was like pre-liberation. Not greatly different from the confederate south in terms of slavery.
All your points are standard CIA talking points levelled against the enemies of US empire, and yet you do not reflect at all.
You also do not reflect when reminded about the more oppressive practices of US cops.
And you go on about intangibles like freedom, but IGNORE concrete material gains, like a MASSIVE rise in the standard of living, life expectancy, medical care, education etc.
Freedom to do what? Freedom FROM what?
You insist that Tibetans are oppressed, but your sources are 'trust me bro.'
You make claims of torture and oppression, but you can't back any of them.
You discount infrastructure, but that infrastructure DISPROVES your stance.
To oppress a people, you don't need to build an infrastructure. Simply fail to do so, and they will be oppressed.
You oppress a people to exploit them. To take their land, to exploit their labour.
And yet this is not only NOT being done, vast sums are spent on infrastructure to improve lives.
You do not do that if you want to gain wealth from a people.
That's a loss.
You are just wrong on every level.