1) Be nice and; have fun
Doxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them
2) All posts must end with a '?'
This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?
3) No spam
Please do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.
4) NSFW is okay, within reason
Just remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [email protected] or [email protected].
NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].
5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions.
If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email [email protected]. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.
Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.
Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu
just like violence isn't applicable everywhere, non-violence isn't applicable everywhere.
back in the day, nazis used to get violently run out of shows because they tried to infiltrate the punk movement and punks said "Nazi punks fuck off" and then punched them until they left.
This unlocked a memory of a punk show i was 15 or so years ago. It was a pretty small show of a local punk and Oi show. It was pretty damn bad, but the small show was packed with drunk as fuck oi punks. This was around the time i quit drinking, and everyone being super drunk inside, i often went outside to get some fresh air. I was outside with a friend when 4 neo nazis walked by, also super drunk, starting some shit. It was late and i assume they were on their way home. Since i was sober i just told them to get lost, because they are absolutely fucked if anyone saw them out here.
They left, but were still droning around, and suddenly they were twice as much and i knew that it's gonna turn into a shitshow, so i went inside. On my way inside, two locally famous brothers who were twice my sice held me back, asking me: "where are the nazis? And i pointed outside. They said: "show me", it the most serious voice i have ever heard from them. So i went outside, followed by two fridge sized guys. By that time, there were around 12 to 15 nazis outside. I tried to make a joke or something, but before i could open my mouth, they threw bottles and just CHARGED them. By that time, word got around and the whole venue inclusive the bands were there too. They ran off, some got fucked up, and i was quite literally the only sober guy there, so i kinda just followed them, like i was their caretaker or something. We chased them around.
Some of the guys were so hammered that they just face planted at full speed. It was a sight to behold. Some got away, but some didn't and they got fucked up. Like i've seen people get punched in the face and i've been in brawls, but this was bad. So i did what i felt what i had to do and pulled some of the gus back. I yanked a guy who was probably the scariest dude i ever met in my life to this day and made him drop on his drunk ass. His aggression was suddenly pointed towards me. I thought great, now i'm gonna catch some fists, because i has helping a nazi, the very same nazi who called me a faggot not even half an hour ago. But there was no time to think about that, because some other dudes wanted a piece of these 5 or so remaining nazis. The scary guy had no voice anymore, grabbed me and i heard his fucked up voice saying, if you are helping them, you are against all of us. I pointed at the guy and said: you are gonna kill a guy today. And the guy looked FUCKED. so he suddenly sobered up, and said: i think you're right. Police sirens went off and we scattered.
I felt like the biggest traitor for years, because to be honest, because i wanted to punch some nazis really really bad that day, but i did quite the opposite.
it sounds like you were protecting the Nazi-punchers rather than the Nazis.
That's the right call!
I’ve punched plenty of nazis. They try to infiltrate our punk and metal scenes and cause shit, being one of the bigger guys there who also has training, it’s my responsibility to help make sure they don’t fucking stick around.
You can try and go the pacifist route with these people, but I know from experience that it doesn’t do Jack shit, and they’ll keep coming back with their dumb bullshit, and more and more will start showing up unless you shut that shit down hard.
I've seen too many examples throughout history of people trying to use nonviolence and do things the right way and just getting slaughtered because the other side simply does not care to be a pacifist. The world is clearly a better place because people employed violence in WWII to stop the Nazis. And street fighting in the 30's was one of the ways that the Nazis secured their power in the first place.
Nonviolent methods are tools that are useful to have in your toolbox, and in many situations, they are more practical in achieving your ends. But there are cases were violence is more practical, even necessary, and one shouldn't shy away from it when it's needed. You gotta have your head in the game, the stakes are too high. A diversity of tactics is best.
The logic that violence is oppressive so it should be renounced in all cases in order to reduce oppression is idealist. You have to look at the actual evidence and material situation to evaluate what effects violence will have in a given situation.
Punching Nazis is cool and good. Just try not to get arrested for it because it'll take you out of the action longer than it will them.
I’m in my 40’s now, but as a teenager that used to go to a lot of punk shows; I can assure you the sentiment is literal. A group of anti-nazis can give a few nazis a really bad time.
Personally I believe violence should only be used in defense of self or innocent people around you from imminent threats, never otherwise. Use words to fight words, use ideas to fight ideas, use fists to fight fists, guns to fight guns or knives. Straight pacifism to the degree of foregoing defense seems naive to me, but so does using violence for anything but defense from violence.
See the thing about the supposed cycle of violence is that it implies equal fault and innocence of both sides. It relies on toleration theory.
Toleration is a treaty, when you break it you are no longer protected by it. It is an entirely justifiable and moral act to instigate violence against fascists, because their very ideology is a violation of the treaty of toleration, and their organization is one which cannot sustain itself in the face of repeated attacks.
You often hear complaints about how enforcing internet rules against the fascists just leads to whackamole bans, but the thing is that every successive ban leaves the fascists less coordinated, less emboldened, and more isolated. There is a critical point of punitive and preventative acts where a fascist org is effectively atomized and anyone worth pulling out has been rock bottomed into a holding space where they can be rehabbed.
Peaceful methods are what can be achieved after you've destroyed them, either through hounding operations making it less and less possible for them to group up and act together, or by normalizing violence and intolerance against them to the extent that they are at least afraid enough to stop trying to not be sniveling cowards such as the fascist naturally is.
The true fascist is only kept quiet in an environment of fear, where they know that trying to stick their heads up will get it lopped off in short order. An environment where even peacible means of antifascism still include complete social ostracism and career destruction, and where persistent fascism is met with swift and appropriate violent rejection.
Don't just punch the Nazis, dox them to their families and employers and communities, encourage others to be armed and ready to attack preemptively in their presence, organize around making that Nazi specifically know their rightful place is silent and afraid until they've cut the shit and stopped being a nazi, before someone ends up killing them in self defense.
If you don't punch back they will simply continue to steamroll anyone they see as inferior.
Nazis get worse if you don't actively oppose them. That can look like punching them, but it can also look like actively ostracizing them by taking away their jobs, denying them participation in community events, or just straight up shaming them in public.
Pacifism only works if the other side isn't willing to kill you. These jackasses fantasize about genociding people as a hobby, so if you think pacifism is going to work for you then go right ahead but I'll be over here working on my defensive skills.
In many situations nazi-punching is not your best tactical decision, especially in the presence of cops. Using your words to hurt the poor Nazi snowflakes feelings works just as well and has the added benefit of potentially provoking them into getting themselves arrested if there are cops watching.
My great grandfather would have shot them. He did shoot them. For King and Country. And I'm proud of this fact 😎🇬🇧
Violence must be organized and accountable to be just. Non-violence is always preferred, and is always the initial approach.
But if there is a credible threat, defensive violence is OK as long as whoever is being violent accepts whatever accountability may come.
I'm conflicted about it, but the fact is one reason the US has been so successful in leading the world in relative peace (as compared to WWII and before, not compared to the ideal) is because we have so much capacity for violence in our back pocket.
"Talk softly and carry a big stick."
I'm not big on violence, and I don't enjoy hitting people, but I've done it a couple of times and I'm always willing to throw down with nazis. If we're not willing to defend ourselves and others, we might as well just hand them the keys and let them do whatever they want. That's gonna be a hard no for me.
The contract of tolerance requires swift shutting down of the intolerant 🤛
I'm just gonna focus entirely on the common misunderstanding of the use of violence against Nazis in WWII because that's such a common argument for punching nazis and it's really quite wrong on so many levels.
"But Nazis were stopped by violence in WWII." That's a meaningless statement without the missing last word. Violence stopped Nazis militarily, after they had already seized power in Germany and were invading other countries. Today we're not in a military battle with Nazis, we're in an ideological battle.
So why did the Nazis seize power in Germany? Because they weren't punched enough? Well the exact mechanism behind how the nazis seized power is a complex web of illegal political maneuvers, political violence, and yes, some degree of ideological success by the nazis. But a key part of that ideological success was the fear of political violence by their opponents - most notably the Reichstag fire - to justify the power that they were illegally taking. It was basically "desperate times require desperate measures". So in the ideological battle, the perceived* use of violence by Nazi opponents was actually a key part of their victory within Germany.
Meanwhile, over in the US, the contrast between the violence employed by the German American Bund (the US version of the Nazi party) and largely Jewish peaceful protesters ended up being a massive embarrassment to the Bund from which they never recovered. Again, ideologically, non-violence proved quite effective.
Point being, and this should be obvious - violence is a really bad option for succeeding in an ideological battle. Yes, in a military battle, it's the only rational option. But in an ideological battle, it's actually counterproductive.
*Obligatory caveat that whether the Reichstag fire was actually set by nazi opponents remains debated, but suffice to say the political atmosphere at the time made it plausible.
Maybe if we just don't fight the Nazis, they won't be able to justify violence against us 🤡
Yeah let's just allow roving gangs of brownshirts to run around attacking and terrorizing minorities because if we don't they might stage an attack and the "atmosphere of violence" we've created by trying to keep people safe will allow them to blame it on us and seize power. The solution is to just allow them to seize power directly through force, without resistance.
This is nonsense. Nazis don't need a justification to use force against you, they can literally just lie and make shit up, like they did with the Reichstag Fire. It doesn't matter if it's true because it's directed at the weakest and most vulnerable and stigmatized populations, who have the least capacity to fight back and the fewest platforms to counter their narratives, and once they're done with them they work their way up. They will create terror on the streets and then use the fact that the streets are full of terror to seize power. People are going to try to defend themselves when attacked whether you think they should or not, so the only question is whether that resistance is strong enough to actually work.
don't use violence, if you value your life. violence is for idiots.
there's the tolerance paradox: you should use the least amount of violence that keeps society (and your own life) stable.
Our fear has made us gullible A bully rose to take control And now they’re yelling “off with their heads!” We’ve been through this, we ended it Or so we thought it had been fought It’s like an army back from the dead...
Nonviolence is a lofty, and unattainable ideal. Unless you can create something that prevents violence in an absolute, physical sense or can successfully breed out the sadistic elements of humanity it will forever be subject to the whims of charismatic violent people. World history, at least from the perspective of governing authority, is nothing but physical and psychological violence.
The Buddhists would tell you that life is duhkah (suffering). Trying to force any order onto only increases suffering. The french existentialists would tell them that the only thing you can do about it is to laugh in the face of the absurdity of existence. Then they'd go to a bar and the buddhists would watch the existentialists drink themselves to oblivion respectfully and with a detached interest.
Anarchism, nonviolence, and philosophy in general, rarely align with your subjective lived experience. The best way to deal with Nazis is not to punch them, but to live your life the best you can and try to have as much fun with other humans as is possible. If you engage with them on their terms, those of violence and hate, they've already won. Hug a nazi, especially if you're part of a demographic they hate. Treat them like you would a slow child. Education, empathy, and kindness beat the nazi next door. Unfortunately though once they establish their fourth Reich like it seems they are close to, you have to wield collective hard power (tanks, predator drones, and boots on the ground).
You, the human reading this, will accomplish nothing by punching a nazi, hug them or ignore them until it's time to fight them collectively.
The whole "Punch a Nazi Day!" has two origins:
Captain America #1 - 12/20/1940 - A full YEAR before the US entered the war:
Right Wing Nazi Richard Spencer getting punched during a live interview:
I am serious that they should be punched. I am a non-violent person, so I hope that someone better fit for the job does it. If faced with a nazi that I think I can take or one that I think I can sorta take, I might punch them myself.
I didn't think this way until I read, Culture Warlords: My Journey Into the Dark Web of White Supremacy, by Talia Levin. After, I am firmly in the "punch a nazi" camp.
