chapotraphouse

the cult of intellectual poverty

There are traditional libertarians (i.e. anarchists, anarcho-communists, etc.) and there are Rothbardian libertarians (liberal market reformists primarily in the Anglosphere). These two groups tend to be diametrically opposed to each other.

The latter is never serious (except as a grift). It considers freedom to be a pathological form of positive liberty, where socioeconomic status grants the right to oppress lower classes (which is of course very appealing to conservatives). The US Libertarian party belongs to this version. It was named after traditional libertarianism but it is not actually a descendant ideology (as demonstrated by conflicting stances on fundamental principles).

The former doesn't believe in the "magic of the free market," and focuses instead on eliminating the financial systems that create hierarchy out of inequal access to resources (because the chains of capital impede negative liberty / the right to not be oppressed). As such, it is incompatible with Rothbard's version. This type may organize with socialists or communists, or may seek an immediate anarchist revolution, depending on the variety and individual. I'll let you judge this type of libertarianism for yourself. A common criticism is that it is too "Pie in the Sky."

On a final note, I will argue that the Wikipedia entry is incorrect in stating that Libertarian socialism is unique in rejecting private property. In general, all traditional forms of libertarianism reject private property because it is a vehicle for inequality that propagates hierarchy and oppression. See anarchist communism for another libertarian ideology that opposes private property.

e: I should add I'm mostly talking about the radical, unadulterated versions of these ideologies. Individuals can be more or less radical, serious, committed, aware, informed, etc. If you were to say almost no libertarians see it this way and that in practice they are nearly all silly, I wouldn't really feel compelled to argue lol. That's been my overwhelming experience too, although with a few notable exceptions IRL.

at Bluesky I just had an argument with a self-described socio-libertarian

I think masturbating would have been a better use of your time

I was a "left libertarian" for a while. In theory, do whatever you like as long as you're not hurting anyone sounds nice. Of course, this means people would have to uphold environmental regulations, since there's a lot of bad stuff other people could be downwind of. There's also regulations on hunting, fishing, and farming. I also noticed a pattern where a lot of libertarians weren't so fond on personal freedoms if they involved being gay or a religion other than Protestant Christian.

Tldr: there are libertarians with good intentions, but most of them lack theory or just don't like to think to much beyond "good vibes for everyone". The Ancom leaning sorts can work in the small scale commune type of situations, I guess.

Every single right libertarian I've seen on the internet has done extensive philosophical masturbation and mental gymnastics to vehemently defend capitalism, even against fascists. They worship von Mises, one of the most evil pieces of shit to have ever lived, and want you and I to suffer under social darwinist market conditions. It makes a lot of sense, when you think about it from the perspective of a rich "person".

It is reasonable to conclude that they all deserve beatings.

Libertarians don't make sense by design. They are what happens when people are kept as politically ignorant as possible and proud of it.

What no theory does to a mfer

I’ll say that libertarian socialism is broad umbrella that covers everything from anarcho-socialist tendencies to “I would like to do the socialism without heavy-handed intrusion by the state into people’s lives.” So it’s kind of hard to make a blanket statement about it.

Personally, I think socialist political economies should strive to be as least intrusive as possible, but obviously the material conditions of the situation are going to dictate how possible that is. Which is a good indicator of how ridiculous a person is being, if they understand the realities that get in the way of that guideline or if they go into the territory of demonizing any AES country that doesn’t meet the perfect ideal.

This is flippant of me, but I think it's obvious that Libertarianism is just what happens when you would otherwise arrive Liberalism or Anarchism, but don't do the homework.

Lenin tells us "Only political power is real, everything else is an illusion."

A political ideology that specifically sets out not to hold political power just lands you squarely in the field of irreality.

In defense of Anarchist comrades, I think most of them understand Lenin's point intuitively and correctly identify that wielding revolutionary political power to bring about their ideas is necessary. Right wing libertarians don't, so their ideology is fundamentally not tethered to the real.

The concept of right-libertarianism, technically speaking, because this is the self-justifying modern descendant ideology of settler-colonialism, from Amerikkka to Australia, in its infancy...

Think about it, there isn't much propetarian libertarianism, beyond the New World

Increase in price of bad behavior (i.e. getting shoved into a mine shaft by a collective of like minded people) is perfectly adequate position. American ancap perverts thus explicitly say that state has to do the policing, cause they are very uncomfortable with anarchism.

If they are against that, and start mumbling about laws, they are just ancap who hates taxes

Putting my neck out again, hopefully not getting dogpiled THIS time...

I believe I fall into this category. I want us to get to that theoretical goal called Communism: A stateless, classless, moneyless society. In order to get there I believe we need a state that is as unrestrictive as possible, while still protecting people from being harmed by others.

The law is a threat by the state. It means "do this and we will lock you up". I want less reasons for cops to exist. I want less excuses to oppress people. I want a state that leaves people alone as a rule unless it's absolutely necessary to intervene.

The speed limit is a good example. This is possibly the most commonly recognized, visible law in the world. There are signs posted with a limit of how many miles or km per hour you can drive, and if you go over that you're supposed to be fined. Do it a lot and you lose your privilege to drive, or spend time in jail.

In reality this doesn't happen. I drive on highways a lot, and there are lots of people who are driving 20-30mph over the limit, weaving in and out of lanes, being super dangerous! Do they get caught? No. Meanwhile when I do see someone pulled over, they tend to be from a minority group. Guess which part of the US I live in

This law isn't keeping people safe because it is selectively enforced. Worse, it's mainly used as an excuse to harass POC, leading a demographic down a path that leads to legal slavery (via prisons) and a lifetime of oppression.

Should we get rid of speed limits? Probably not. But I would be in favor of making them more flexible, making them higher, and coming up with ways to indiscriminately punish people who go over the more reasonable limits.

Now to the reason I got piled the other day: online gambling. I thought about it some more, and I realized I had an ableist take on addiction. Some people literally can't help themselves from getting into this to the point of throwing away their life savings, ruining their families in the process.

Here's the controversial part: I'd support restrictions on online gambling / sports betting / casinos but not outright bans. I don't believe it's fair to completely ban something for people who enjoy it, can do so responsibly, and aren't harming others from that casual enjoyment. Peggle is my game, but I get why people love Poker and slots and betting on who will score a touchdown in the 3rd quarter. I also get some people take it too far.

So what should we do? Ban online gambling completely? No. Instead I could see some sort of restriction on the amount individuals can bet per month. Maybe that's $50 at first and tied to inflation. Or we require banks to stop payment after a certain monthly limit is hit. Or we initially cap betting at a low amount, requiring counseling to increase that amount. Let people play the games without betting real money. I'm sure a happy middle-ground exists where the casual users can have their fun and the addicts get cut off before it becomes a big problem.

I'd apply the same thing to cigarettes, beer, and other "vices". Enjoy in moderation. I'm never going to support prohibition or completely banning tobacco use even though it has ruined countless lives.

No, this doesn't mean I support "voluntary" human trafficking or other nonsense people accused me of. I want governments to generally leave me alone as long as I'm not hurting other people with what I'm doing.

The main reason is I don't trust the government to do anything good. In fact, I'm afraid of what a more powerful government can do to hurt me and my family! A government that can force apps off my phone can take away my speech, control where I go, control what I can say, control who I can associate with, and more. I'm afraid of these things happening here where I live. The government is already too strong and law enforcement in places around here have literal military equipment on hand to keep us obedient.

Why should I want a government that is banning books and bombing kids overseas have more control over my life? Ultimately what Libertarian Socialism means to me is self-defense against systems of oppression. That means I want the workers to control the means of production (self-defense against Capitalism / bourgeois control) AND I want a minimal state to protect us and do what small groups of people can't realistically do (self-defense against state control).