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Even if we see (likely) “act first, let it wind through the courts later,” I’d expect there to be a substantial number of refusals.
Members of the military have an obligation to refuse illegal orders. I am neither in the military nor a lawyer, so I can’t go too deep on that.
I have no doubt this is his first step in ferreting out any military leadership who holds loyalty to the constitution over him personally. Whether this particular plan is blocked or not, it lets him clear out anyone who won't follow his orders without question going forward.
where do you go if you have no papers? a stateless purgatory camp?
they're called concentration camps because they concentrate all "illegals" in one convenient location for "processing".
people will lie to you and say it's not possible. they will lie to you and tell you it would never come to that. they will lie to you and tell you citizens would never allow that to happen.
they lied to themselves for eight years and said never again.
It's happening again.
So, the Orange Turd plans on suspending the US Constitution and using the so-called national emergency to go for the full power grab. I certainly hope the US military upholds the pledge to protect the US Constitution.
The US president is the commander in chief and the US military is subservient to US president, never mind how many of them come from the MAGA cult bubble themselves. The military is a poor safeguard for democracy.
We'll see. The military is under pretty clear orders to defend the constitution from threats both foreign and domestic. Trump ia domestic threat and a fascist, and fascists flip the truth upside down, so he'll accuse immigrants of being a domestic threat as a way of trying to convince the military to violate their oath. He'll certainly replace legitimate generals with spineless lackey loyalists, but the oath isn't to obey generals, it's to protect the constitution, and it goes from top to bottom.
This will be a trickier test of the military's quality than WW2.
The oath to protect the US Constitution from foreign and domestic enemies takes priority. You are correct in one regard, it will depend on the military leadership and soldiers.
Hello. I'm from Germany and I have bad news for you. If our own history taught me anything, it's this: When there is a critical mass of citizens (including military personnel) who are willing to ignore common societal values and at the same time there is a corrupt justice system which can just bend the law to their will, there is very little in the way to full scale fascism. You guys have the groundwork for this right in front of your face. Your supreme court is only inches away from fulfilling that role and the last election showed that a majority of people are already blindsided enough to wholeheartedly believe the bullshit that they are being fed.
So please don't take this lightly. Democracy is not for granted and it can be taken away. It's a slow process up to a point where things fall in place and then it happens very quickly. In Germany the rise of the Nazis didn't happen over night. Warning signs were there from the first world war on, and the slow erosion of society along with economic factors was a key element. Hitler himself was widely regarded as a loud mouthed clown with little chance to actually accomplish anything.
The erosion part has been going on in the US for decades now. This time, most of the puzzle pieces needed are already in place.
And about the "they are incompetent, it won't be that bad" argument. They don't need competence to break things when they are in power. Breaking things is precisely what these people are looking for. Destruction of democratic values, economic instability, fear, poverty, chaos and social unrest are the key to more power. You just need to look at the designated cabinet positions. Those candidates were specifically chosen to fuck things up in the worst way imaginable. This is not a coincidence. This is a recipe taken right from the fascist's handbook.
Wonder what one can do about this?
the thing that infuriates me is not so much that it will happen, but that people will not believe that it is happening or has happened
A lot of us know and agree.
We are the ones without any power.
Please find your groups, organize, protest, demand change. We, the rest of the world, saw how big you've protested for good before, and it's needed now more than ever in your country. You're not powerless, you're not alone, and your actions matter.
You live in a country that used to pride itself as a world leader, and while that image is long gone and lost, we're still watching you guys.
And if you’re an early target, have an escape route.
The problem is this is the US. This is the world's most major superpower. This is the nation whose companies fed and propped up the Nazis. Because what little of democracy there was in the US is now certainly going to fall, it's going to drag the whole world with it. Too many shitheads in too many countries, including Germany, will be willing to follow suit, and all the major superpowers left will be all too willing to prop them up with little to no regard for what rules they won't break in the process. We might even see the US trying to strong-arm nations in the same way China has been trying to strong-arm Taiwan. At a time where the surveillance and control tools at their disposal are at a dystopian high. At a time ramping up for chaos due to major environment and resource collapses that we have been foreseeing for decades.
Absolutely. The tendencies are visible all over the world and there will be grave consequences for all of us. However, there are differences. In Germany for example after the horrors of WW2 the political system was specifically designed to prevent something like this from happening again (ironically the creation of the german constitution was heavily influenced by the US). Which sounds like a good thing at first, but what happened in the last decade was basically this: The right wing parties became stronger at every election and as a result there were coalitions forged between opposing parties to prevent right wing parties from taking over power. And this in term lead to years of standstill in political decision making, dragging down the country, because opposing parties tend to block each others ideas. Which in turn made the right wing even stronger, because they now had someone to blame for the resulting mess. Germany and by extension Europe as well have a lot of bureaucracy, which on one side gives a bit of a shield against hostile takeovers, but has a downside of inefficiency in acting to protect democracy too. It's not looking too good, but Trump's habit of pissing off his allies might have a net positive effect of uniting people against this bullying and encouraging them to get their shit together. But I think it's to early to tell. Could as well sway in the other direction and produce Trump bootlicking countries like you said.
About surveillance technologies, indeed the possibilities set our current situation apart from when Nazis came to power in the past. It's absolutely crazy to witness how a commercial surveillance industry disguised as ad services (Google/Meta/...) created a monster that makes Orwell's 1984 look like a children's book, and most people still don't even understand the implications in order to realize what they're up against. From a european perspective, there is an upside in that at least for now the EU is actively trying to limit the power of those mega corporations. These processes however are chugging along at snail pace due to the aforementioned bureaucracy. Slow, but steady. Which is at least something.
Sorry for the lengthy reply. It's such a broad topic and there are no easy answers.
You are correct, and those of us who aren't fucking morons have known this since even before he came into power the first time. We have a lot of horrible and/or apathetic people. Democracy is worthless if the populace is uninformed or doesn't participate. Now it's dead here.
Education should be free, even for the kids if the neighbor you don't like.
Of course it's not free, it costs tax money, but it's okay. Id rather my neighbors had free education, then maybe I'd like them.
I’d rather have less money and less idiots than more of both
I agree, but who says more taxes means having less money? I mean I pay tax, and then my kids are able to go to school, and potentially up to including college for free (when I took classes in college there was a token fee of 60 dollars per semester), and I've never paid for an ambulance, even though ive used one, my daughter has used one, and my wife has used several. Token fees at hospitals, and doctors offices. Token fees for expensive medicine, totally free medicine that you need to live.
Maybe it's my European point of view, I get that let's say if taxes are raised in a third world country, it would go to politicians families. What's his name Jared Kushner?
As an American, imagine understanding that, having the data for it with socialized healthcare, and constantly dealing with your country just deciding that it isn’t true because taxes will go up (even though they may no even go up much, the government pays out the ass for the uninsured who wait until it’s an emergency rather than getting preventative care). Committing to mass public transit would save time when you need time saved and make everything cheaper because we wouldn’t need parking spots. So much inefficiency but they’ve decided that government means inefficient and that government inefficiency is stuff like science and welfare.
My condolences. I won't hate on you Americans who end up as my neighbor in the future. I won't talk to you either, but that's not because you are American, that's because you decided to move to Norway and we don't talk to our neighbors here
I’ll try to assimilate and attempt to not make too much small talk with the neighbors, if I end up up there, but I am midwestern so I’m probably not going to be able to quit the stuff entirely. We may be annoying, but we’re almost as handy as Germans, so y’all should be able to learn to live around a few of us.
In all seriousness, I was exaggerating, if you do a little bit small talk with the neighbors who don't run away when they see other neighbors, you will fitt right in. Maybe even be a recipient of small talk if you figure something they like talking about
I'm an introverted guy with ADHD, so I avoid smalltalk, but if my kids are playing with your kids, and I had copious amounts of coffee, I'll have a word vomit, and my wife will text me to shut up about Greek mythology or whatever the other person mentioned first
Like the German version of Nazis before them, they aren't coming for their biggest target first. They're coming for their political opposition, the "abortionists", the atheists, the drug users, the mentally ill...
RFK Jr.:
"I’m going to create these wellness farms where they can go to get off of illegal drugs, off of opiates, but also illegal drugs, other psychiatric drugs, if they want to, to get off of SSRIs, to get off of benzos, to get off of Adderall, and to spend time as much time as they need — three or four years if they need it— to learn to get reparented, to reconnect with communities,"
Re-education camps, huh.
Bracing for "Wait, I didn't think you meant me?!?!?"
You know what amazes me? That any vaguely brown person who voted for Trump didn't seem to think that even if they are literally carrying their papers at all times and easily able to prove their citizenship, they are gonna be harassed constantly for the next four years. With hopeful some state exceptions, they are going to have to be very careful to speak only 'Murican in public and suppress public display of non-American cultures. They are literally going to be having to watch their backs every day.
WTF.
Hope everyone in the military is going to be ready because this psycho is going to be calling on you...to do every little thing he wants.
Need to shut down those protesting against him? Better be there.
Need to start beating down people who voted against him? Better be there.
Nothing you'll do will be for the sake of this country's entire interests, it'll be for his interests.
That's why I'm hoping the military does its job and protects the country and constitution from him.
Well if he has his way, he's going to be able to remove general at will
So something ive noticed from folks both left and right is the assumption that bureaucracy will be followed. But if the bureaucrat decides to ignore or even kill ya, well ask Aurelian how well that works out. The Military is very bureaucratic a form this, a slip for that, a request for something and frankly speaking I would love to see Trump suffer at the hands of a bureaucratic revolt.
Next up: arson attack on US Congress. And then the Enabling Act.
We already had our enabling act, the Supreme Court presidential immunity ruling.
"prepared to declare a national emergency and will use military assets to reverse the Biden invasion through a mass deportation program."
- Trump reposted Fitton's comment Monday with the caption, "TRUE!!"
I don’t even know what to say. I’m gobsmacked to depression daily that you’re ok with this.
I’m gobsmacked to depression daily that you’re ok with this.
People who sat at home or pretended like they could wash their hands of it by voting 3rd party are OK with this. I'm sure as shit not.
But EGG PRICES! The economy!
And he's such a strong leader...
(I am paraphrasing actual interviews our local networks did with college students)
Hey, the democratic party wasn't close enough to the workers so there was no alternative..
Well. The chips are down. Your move Generals.
For what it's worth I think there's going to be a ton of pushback. To the point where using the military for this becomes infeasible.
They already planning court marshal and putting military leaders on trail for their roll in Afghanistan. Which is all a cover for Trump to remove the generals and install only loyal members to the military who will do trump bidding.
Generals aren't selected by him personally though. Not unless congress completely folds to him. Remember one Senator holding up all of the promotions? That actually frees up military leadership to appoint replacements themselves. Within reason of course, they aren't putting a private in charge of a brigade. But it does mean that with the tiniest bit of cover from Congress an officer corp loyal to the Constitution can block Trump's agenda and make any purge take literal years to bear fruit. Not to complete it mind you, that will take even longer, just to cobble together enough of a chain of command to get a unit to actually deploy domestically.
That said the military are masters of malicious compliance. There's a really big chance that resistance in the ranks looks like the generals ordering their troops out of the barracks but not taking any weapons because that would violate Posse Comitatus. Then fulfilling Trump's orders by politely asking anyone they see for their papers. They wouldn't arrest, detain, or chase anyone though, because that would be law enforcement and violate Posse Comitatus. They would of course studiously maintain an armed QRF on base just in case anyone finds the invasion of enemy aliens Trump is going to declare an emergency over. You might even see them get used against Cartels at the border in an attempt to appease Trump without clearly violating Posse Comitatus.
I do acknowledge it's entirely possible the generals fold and put the onus on the lower ranks to ignore illegal orders. Which would destroy the military much faster as enlistments drop through the floor, stop loss is engaged, and desertion skyrockets.
There are not enough ICE officers to conduct mass deportation in red states, let alone blue ones. Trump will require cooperation of local police.
If he uses the military in Blue states, it's an obvious attack on the 10th Amendment. It's also illegal to use the military for domestic police work.
We can bet on incompetence for now. Trump needs to grow ICE to a large size before he's even able to conduct a large scale deportation plan of any kind. Deploying the National Guard would be a faux pas, but that's probably the workaround else need to prepare for legally.
Oh no, its illegal to use the military for domestic police work? Deploying the National Guard would be a "faux pas"?
Well, I'm sure that will stop him for sure!