this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2024
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MODERATORS
 

Hello comrades. In the interest of upholding our code of conduct - specifically, rule 1 (providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all) - we felt it appropriate to make a statement regarding the lionization of Luigi Mangione, the alleged United Healthcare CEO shooter, also known as "The Adjuster."

In the day or so since the alleged shooter's identity became known to the public, the whole world has had the chance to dig though his personal social media accounts and attempt to decipher his political ideology and motives. What we have learned may shock you. He is not one of us. He is a "typical" American with largely incoherent, and in many cases reactionary politics. For the most part, what is remarkable about the man himself is that he chose to take out his anger on a genuine enemy of the proletariat, instead of an elementary school.

This is a situation where the art must be separated from the artist. We do not condemn the attack, but as a role model, Luigi Mangione falls short. We do not expect perfection from revolutionary figures either, but we expect a modicum of revolutionary discipline. We expect them not simply to identify an unpopular element of society hitler-detector , but to clearly illuminate the causes of oppression and the means by which they are overcome. When we canonize revolutionary figures, we are holding them up as an example to be followed.

This is where things come back to rule 1. Mangione has a long social media history bearing a spectrum of reactionary viewpoints, and interacting positively with many powerful reactionary figures. While some commenters have referred to this as "nothing malicious," by lionizing this man we effectively deem this behavior acceptable, or at the very least, safe to ignore. This is the type of tailism which opens the door to making a space unsafe for marginalized people.

We're going to be more strict on moderating posts which do little more than lionize the shooter. There is plenty to be said about the unfolding events, the remarkably positive public reaction, how public reactions to "propaganda of the deed" may have changed since the historical epoch of its conception (and how the strategic hazards might not have), and many other aspects of the news without canonizing this man specifically. We can still dance on the graves of our enemies and celebrate their rediscovered fear and vulnerability without the vulgar revisionism needed to pretend this man is some sort of example of Marxist or Anarchist practice.

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[–] [email protected] 68 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I mean, he shouldn't be lionized regardless because he didn't do it.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 1 week ago (2 children)

We appreciate the event, and as far as the event goes, his head just did that.

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[–] [email protected] 66 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (12 children)

Seriously disappointed by what I'm seeing here and in a few other places on hexbear. Do I support the action? Of course. Do I see it as an opportunity to increase class conciousness? Yes. Am I going to uncritically support Luigi just because of that? No.

If all it takes is a single act and the use of some vaguely class concious language to absolve someone of thier reactionary views then why don't we just start uncritically supporting MAGA communists, Vaush, and any other public figures who hold vaguely leftist views? When I see people saying "don't criticize Luigi" I see people saying that they don't give a fuck about their comrades who are marginalized because they belong to a minority group who is affected by reactionary views.

If we are going to use this as an opportunity to build class conciousness, let us do so intelligently. I've been talking to people IRL about this and emphasizing the material conditions which brought about this act. But if someone were to point out that he believed that part of the problem that Americans are facing is woke/DEI or immigrants then I'm going to call him out on that. And if anyone here who keeps on harping about "letting perfect be the enemy of good" then just fucking stop and think for one second. You're opening the door for the right to capture the people who are awakening to their class conciousness. And hell its not as if it isn't already happening. THe populist Trump right uses woking class language all the time to justify heinous shit. And if you are willing to let Luigi's shit views slide then you may as well start supporting right wing populaists just because they are "building" class conciousness.

Also seeing people whine about how this is being moderated and it being "worse" than reddit are being incredibly daft. I still see plenty of Luigi memes that haven't been deleted by the mod team. If you think that posts and comments lionizing or otherwise uncritically supporting Luigi then you are being reddit-logo brained.

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[–] [email protected] 65 points 1 week ago (3 children)

okay that's fine, but what if i want to lionize him as in, draw him and turn him into a hot, buff anthropomorphic lion, kind of like tony the tiger but a bit more human and a lot more sexy?

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[–] [email protected] 63 points 1 week ago (2 children)

what is remarkable about the man himself is that he chose to take out his anger on a genuine enemy of the proletariat, instead of an elementary school.

it's cause he's italian (not a total whiteboy)

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[–] [email protected] 60 points 1 week ago (6 children)

His politics were awful but what if he changed. People can change. He read the Lorax.

[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 week ago (3 children)

From what I've seen he had his back surgery and disappeared for like 3 months. What if he spent that time popping pain pills and playing disco elysium.

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[–] [email protected] 58 points 1 week ago (8 children)

the cycles between mod overreach backlash keep getting shorter and shorter

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[–] [email protected] 57 points 1 week ago (3 children)

I'll do my best to respect the direction the community opts to go and I understand the reasons and stated concern...but as someone who hasn't personally done much lionizing of Mangione after his reveal, consider this my voice of dissent.

I am also disappointed that Luigi Mangione falls well short of our ideal role model as much as anyone...but ultimately we are materialists and this reaction strikes me as rather liberal and idealist. This isn't even a case where the right thing was done for the wrong reasons. Mangione's actions and motivations as outlined in his manifesto were an action of class war. As a figure he is complicated and problematic and the way he did the math completely wrong and somehow still managed to arrive at the right conclusion is quite head scratching...but ultimately I believe the words "critical support" apply here.

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[–] [email protected] 55 points 1 week ago

He is not a revolutionary figure, he is an atom of the masses, maybe the first bubble of a pot about to boil over. The masses do not appear out of thin air when The Conditions are right, they come from the current reactionary society, and we have to meet them as they are, they will not become revolutionary on their own. It makes no sense to condemn him for either adventurism or having reactionary views, those are our failures as organized radical leftists.

[–] [email protected] 54 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Given the absurdity of reaaons given for removing my comments and the style of this post, it seems like there is still a need for the mod team to do some self-crit around community management. No discussions, no explanations in light of mild criticism, just dropping the hammer from on high. Both of my comments were removed using bad faith assumptions that are inaccurate and zero people have talked to me about it.

I was already too embarrassed of this site's trigger-happy flippant modding and mod-driven struggle sessions to recommend it to anyone else anymore. I thought even my irl trans commie friends would dislike it, and lo and behold, when they found it themselves, they did (though it was during the TC69 return). I contributed materially to the site quite a bit in the early years (not comments/posts) so I felt a bit invested.

But things are not going in the right direction and I have no confidence in the admin/mod team.

I'll see some of you in other spaces.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 1 week ago (13 children)

As a newer user on this site, I couldn’t agree more. I mod a large-ish leftist subreddit so I do get the challenges of moderating effectively but seems like the mod team here just removes anything that vaguely hurts someone’s feelings.

There is a difference between feeling unsafe and being unsafe. There is a difference between feeling unsafe and feeling uncomfortable. A lot of people don’t seem to understand these differences.

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[–] [email protected] 52 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Incoming ramble

The Hexbear user base has held two contradictory views which need to be reconciled.

  1. Luigi should be celebrated as an example of the transcendental power of material forces to overcome ideology.
  2. Luigi should be disowned as an unreliable, broken clock whose ideology happens to align with the working class in this one instance.

Both of these things can be true simultaneously — so do we like Luigi or don’t we?

On the one hand, “actions speak louder than words.” Who cares what the guy tweets if his actions are indiscernible from those advocated by theory-gary? How can we, in abstract theory, speak of the inevitability of material forces to assert themselves on society, yet behave as though these forces are manifested only through the intellectually enlightened?

As Marx puts it, “They do not know it, but they do it.” Individual behaviors are forced to align with the conditions, eventually, whether or not one is conscious of it.

On the other hand, we also have reference to historical examples of revolution. I’m not the most well read on the Bolsheviks, the Maoists, and dozens of other revolutionary groups. But I think it can be said that ideological consistency is important for a revolution to succeed. Political action only becomes a movement when it has direction. At the forefront of the class war is the intellectual war. The bourgeoisie has claim of not only the forces of production, but the forces of intellectual production. A revolutionary movement has to have some kind of vanguard that can intellectually counter the theory and ideas put forth by the bourgeoisie.

Even at the time of the Manifesto, it was important for Marx and Engels to consolidate a constellation of socialist ideas behind a clear and decisive theory; one that could be signed-on by each faction.

Excerpt from Engels’ 1890 foreword to the Communist Manifesto

It was bound to have a programme which would not shut the door on the English trade unions, the French, Belgian, Italian, and Spanish Proudhonists, and the German Lassalleans. This programme — the considerations underlying the Statutes of the International — was drawn up by Marx with a master hand acknowledged even by the Bakunin and the anarchists. For the ultimate final triumph of the ideas set forth in the Manifesto, Marx relied solely upon the intellectual development of the working class, as it necessarily has to ensue from united action and discussion. The events and vicissitudes in the struggle against capital, the defeats even more than the successes, could not but demonstrate to the fighters the inadequacy of their former universal panaceas, and make their minds more receptive to a thorough understanding of the true conditions for working-class emancipation. And Marx was right. The working class of 1874, at the dissolution of the International, was altogether different from that of 1864, at its foundation. Proudhonism in the Latin countries, and the specific Lassalleanism in Germany, were dying out; and even the ten arch-conservative English trade unions were gradually approaching the point where, in 1887, the chairman of their Swansea Congress could say in their name: “Continental socialism has lost its terror for us.” Yet by 1887 continental socialism was almost exclusively the theory heralded in the Manifesto. Thus, to a certain extent, the history of the Manifesto reflects the history of the modern working-class movement since 1848.


Clearly, while material forces will assert themselves, the character of their manifestation depends on many factors. Decaying conditions can either produce a positive and democratic revolution, or they can cast a nation into a long period of fascism that sets back the revolution by 500 years. Human agency is an essential part of history and revolution. Ideology, being the indirect driver of human action, plays a part regardless of its theoretical subordination to material forces.

Wrapping this up… I think it comes down to the true meaning of ~~Christmas~~ critical support. What does it actually mean? It’s too easy to use it as a crutch — to omit from analysis those things most challenging to understand, while preserving a self-image of nuance and maturity.

Critical support should actually involve critique. Not in order to undermine but to advance the theory and therefore the cause. This dude Luigi presents an opportunity to demonstrate the truth of point #1 (inevitability of material forces) while critiquing the person: the insufficiency of adventurism, in its function as an individual battle and not a collective battle of the working class; the flaws of his reactionary ideology and its tendency to break up the working class; and the wasted potential of a manifesto without a clear message.

[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 week ago

When someone says "Do you support Luigi?" it depends on context. Are they saying the shooting and his reasons for doing so? Then yes, uncritically (anti-adventurists will argue about that). His brainworms? No. Those can be separated though, the brainworms aren't related to the act, all that matters here is that someone had a horrendous experience with healthcare, recognises nothing will change without waging class war for it, and went out and committed an act of class war on the side of the proletariat.

[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 week ago

Feels like we started a struggle session bc someone posted out of hand? Weird paternalistic mod behavior to post this ngl. downbear

[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 week ago (5 children)

This is why I wish he wasn't caught. During the time he was on the run the focus was all on what a terrible person Brian Thompson is and how deeply evil the Amerikkkan "healthcare" industry is. Now all people want to do is talk about the guy who did it and not the ghoul who was killed.

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 week ago (13 children)

Been more disgusted with the lionizing of HTS and al-Jolani tbh

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[–] [email protected] 44 points 1 week ago (6 children)

I'm having conflicting feelings

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 week ago

There is a very easy way to avoid all of this. Just celebrate the killing of a CEO. Stop talking about Luigi jfc

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Well I'm glad I got most of it out of my system then.

That said, my mom's surgery was delayed by a month by United Healthcare shenanigans and time will tell how much damage that may have caused. Separating the art from the artist will be difficult here.

[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I had a doctors appointment today and the receptionist said it's no wonder people are killing insurance ceos

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 week ago (15 children)

not reading all that

are we getting luigi emojis or not, thats all i need to know

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[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 week ago (1 children)

How does this apply to meme-tier posts (Luigi’s Mansion, paulie-point anti-italian-discrimination stuff)?

[–] [email protected] 46 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

The guy himself is a meme shrug-outta-hecks. A very funny thing happened. Things like "we can't let the right take him from us" or "on this day we are all Luigi" or (sincerely) "don't worry about all those times he retweeted people who are entering the Trump 2024 administration" are whatever you call garbage in a place which cherishes shitposts.

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[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Respectfully, this is completely reversing how we should be looking at this. Rather than seeing what good someone has done and then choosing to "claim" them. We should instead look to see what good we can do by ideologically "claiming" someone.

Nikolay Bauman slept with a comrade's wife and then bullied her to death once she became pregnant. He is the definition of a problematic figure but he was held up as a martyr by the Soviets. The reason, his death helped inspire revolutionary action and spread their ideals further.

Luigi Mangione is infinitely less problematic and can also be used for revolutionary ends. Realpolitik always trumps ideological purity. If putting him an stamp or t-shirt helps get us healthcare, I can make peace with his less based views. We do not need to support every part of him in order to support his actions on that day.

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[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 week ago (1 children)

we can treat him like we do a-guy

[–] [email protected] 58 points 1 week ago (1 children)

A little better. Luigi had a much better target.

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[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 week ago

Good post. Fully agree.

I think a big part of the issue is that people are struggling to reconcile the dude they made up in their heads(The Adjuster) and love, and the dude who actually exists(Luigi's Mansion) who isn't particularly lovable. I think it'll fade over time as those two distinct things get smooshed together.

Until then, it should be strongly discouraged to lionize him like people have been.

[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (18 children)

Before you get mad at this mod post, consider the difference between “critical support” and “lionization.”

Which term is used in the post?

Should we lionize a transphobic white guy living in the imperial core, in 2024, on this trans-inclusive website? No, because people here shouldn’t have to wonder, “does this commenter know about the transphobia and just not care?” There shouldn’t be that ambiguity.

Luigi had the right motives, the assassination itself was not a reactionary act. But the man is a transphobe, or he was one recently, and that’s not a trivial issue, we shouldn’t treat it as a trivial issue. He’s not Hamas, he’s not Stalin, he’s a well-off white American man in 2024.

Yeah, you can and should celebrate that a CEO got dropped, but don’t make Luigi your hero. Don’t lionize this guy.

That seems like a perfectly reasonable mod stance to me.

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[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 week ago (18 children)

Good post. While we are at it, we should ban lionizing Stalin for his reactionary viewpoints next.

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