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Yup. Patriarchy did them dirty. Society told them they had to be strong, stoic, and without emotion. And when that butted up against the realities of being a human we didn't have any community to lead them towards living a good and healthy life.
You can fault the Right for a lot of things but they got there first on this one. They have a story for why things suck and they’re pounding the drum on it relentlessly. It doesn’t matter that this story is full of holes when the alternative is not compelling.
Yup. The propaganda machine moved quick when they realized this population could be manipulated into action outside of message boards.
Calling it "patriarchy" is thinly-veiled victim blaming, implying that men suffer primarily because of other men's decisions. Everything you describe is perpetuated and maintained by both sexes. The social fabric of modern society, its implicit rules and conventions, is not a male establishment.
Western society is not, at all, a "patriarchy".
Patriarchy did em dirty, but feminism also left them behind. It's not just patriarchal society that forces men to be strong and stoic, it's also self-professed feminists, especially women. Feminists say men should be more in touch with their emotions, but when they do so women have no interest in them. That's one of the realities of life you mentioned.
That's still patriarchy, my guy. They've been raised to be complicit in a system that doesn't benefit them, and they're perpetuating it because they don't like how it feels to step outside of it.
I disagree that it's fair to call that patriarchy, but that's beside the point. The failure of feminists to take any action against it or even to sound like they care is what I was getting at. That is by definition not patriarchy, it's the indifference of feminism.
Feminism may not be directly attacking men, but it's also not helping men except as an occasional side effect of helping women. Men have no acceptable paradigm to help them navigate society.
Any attempt at "Men's theory" or some such gets simultaneously attacked by feminists and misogynists and quickly gets subsumed into one of those two camps.
Bro, you're almost there...
Get me over the finish line then.
He/she already tried.
All I see is "everything bad is patriarchy, everything good is feminism" and a steadfast avoidance of the specific issue I brought up.
The expectations the feminists have, are a part of the patriarchy, is what I'm guessing they're trying to say, so it's ultimately still the fault of broader patriarchy and it's standards. I guess what you're effectively saying is that Feminists are affected by patriarchy and it's standards too I guess, which is obvious given they're human and most humans aren't perfect.
Edit Addendum: I also think why it's hard sometimes for some feminists to acknowledge the problems men face, under the standards that the social system and hierarchy that patriarchy sets and is, is that men often play such a big role in the preservation and continuation of patriarchy, that the idea of even talking about or blaming some women(the gender which has faced the biggest brunt of the abuse from patriarchy) for also upholding the system of patriarchy, gets hard. It feels almost as if you were victim blaming or punching down, even though such aspects of patriarchy(that is the idea of women's role in upholding the continuation of it) must be addressed.
I mean dude think about it. You are almost literally saying that any bad things feminists do are because of the patriarchy. Any failings in feminist theory is because of patriarchy. Any lack of concern for men, any failure to worry about the lack of concern for men, it's all patriarchy.
Does that really ring true to you? I mean, if patriarchy is such a nebulous thing that it's subconsciously affecting the very things that feminists choose to worry about...then we should be able to lay all of feminism's successes at the feet of patriarchy too, right? Women's sufferage? Patriarchy. Freedom of choice? Patriarchy. Women in the workplace? Patriarchy. You may think it was feminism, but clearly the invisible guiding hand of patriarchy is influencing feminists.
Or is it only patriarchy when it's something bad?
Look, I'm not saying there's no such thing as patriarchy. Or misogyny. I absolutely believe that there are systemic injustices in the world perpetrated against women en masse. I also believe that our historically patriarchal society has caused a level of male-centric bias in our world.
I object to the complete and total failure of feminism to admit to any negative effects whatsoever. Feminism is not self-reflective and therefore can never be egalitarian. It will always be a struggle for one group against another.
I think it does ring true. I think you can also say that, in a way, feminism successes do come from patriarchy, that is to say-
It is built upon patriarchy, through the analysis, critique and solutions offered by feminists to it.
What you are critiquing is the hypocrisy and personal individual failings of feminists, which is valid, but is another problem entirely I feel.
Perhaps you are saying these hypocrises and personal individual failings affect alot more feminists than feminists themselves would like to admit? Or perhaps that these hypocrises and personal individual failings have poisoned feminism and it's touted ideals? That feminists who fail in these ways affect the ideology of feminism and that THIS feminism, the "feminism of hypocrites" is what now pervades majority feminist thought?
No, I'm saying that of the list of things feminists are concerned about - wage gap, abortion access, burden of child rearing, intersectional issues - no where on that list is any bad things feminists do. I'm not saying it's systemic (I do happen to believe that, but it's irrelevant at the moment), I'm just saying it happens enough that feminism should be worried about it, at least a little. That lack of concern is damning.
It's like having one abusive cop in a department. Ok, there's one bad cop and 99 good ones, but the 99 good ones are not denouncing him. They are protecting him. So in a way, you have 100 bad cops. If the 99 cops were denouncing him, refusing to work with him, petitioning the police union to disown him, etc...that would be fine. But they never do.
Individual women being shitty is individual women being shitty. Feminism refusing to admit it has a problem in its ranks is feminism being shitty.
If a woman tells a man to having emotions isn't manly then they're not acting as a feminist. That, by definition, is an idea that comes to us from the religious, moral, and civic tradition that produced the modern patriarchy. The people, men and women, who say and do things that reflect and maintain those ideas are failing the ideals of feminism.
To use an analogy, North Korea calls itself a democracy. They do not elect a leader. That doesn't mean democracy has failed, just that this country is doing anti democratic things.
Great! That's a great outlook. Now please start saying those things without a guy like me having to browbeat you into it first. And start saying them to the women who are failing feminism, not to us. If feminism would reject and excise these women, and focus on teaching women to be better (not exclusively focusing on that! Just make it part of the program) then everything I've been talking about would be a nothingburger.
Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension, because that's what I and like 4 other commenters have been saying. Then you can go ahead and submit a complaint to the president of feminism, since you seem to think that they're having a meeting and deciding that you personally aren't masculine enough for them.
Grow up.
Your anger does not change the fact that feminism is failing boys in this way. You want to stop alienating boys? Clean up your own house and start giving a damn about them.
Bro, that's the fuckin point. The patriarchal nature of our society has done this, not feminism. And since we still live under a largely patriarchal society, men are the ones empowered to do something about it. Should those women individually be better? Yeah, probably. But they're still not really the ones running the fuckin show.
You want to talk about cleaning up house? Maybe look around at what you can do instead of expecting a group that has been treated as property for the last 1000 years to do the emotional labor that us men have been neglecting in order to spare your feelings.
Emotional labor is everyone's responsibility. Women don't get to have a "turn" of being dismissive and belittling. If you don't give a shit about men, boys are not going to give a shit about you. That's why boys are turning against feminism. Boys need help. Boys need understanding. Boys need nurturing and strong male role models. Boys need someone who says "I see you and understand your struggles, and they are valid, and I want to help". Feminism refuses to do that, so boys don't participate in feminism.
Which I think is fair on both sides. Black Lives Matter isn't concerned with the struggles of Native people. It's a fight, but it's not their fight. If feminism wants to be exclusively a voice for women, that's not a bad thing. But it's to be expected boys won't consider themselves feminists. They may support it in principle, but then if they're constantly told they're the enemy because of the sins of their fathers, well, maybe they won't support it.
Personally, I find my experience to be much the opposite. But, I'm also in my late thirties so, experiences may differ.
You need to hang out with better women, my man.
See? Dismissive, refusal to acknowledge systemic issues, rugged individualism. That's holdovers from patriarchy and feminists should reject that thought process.
When women have a problem, it is society's fault and we should fix it. When men have a problem, it's their own fault and they individually should fix it. That's not fair, and the fact that no one in the feminist sphere seems to give a shit leaves young men deciding to turn to misogynists for moral support.
Red pill types will say, "we see you. This is a problem. You're not crazy." That's very powerful when there's no alternative.
You have a lot more sympathy for right-wing incels than you do for people who don't support genocide.
We've talked about your singular love for genocide multiple times in the past. In the context of your hatred for feminism and your sympathy for incels, you truly are the voice of centrism.
We've also talked about how the politics mods apparently won't let me defend myself against you even when you follow me to another sub just to pile on me with unrelated...things to say.
HIGHLY UNSPECIFIED THINGS WHICH I AM NOT COMMENTING ON, MODS.
Except to say that it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, so please talk about something relevant or leave.
Your defense includes mocking genocide victims and screaming "russian shill" at anyone who doesn't agree with your total and unwavering support for genocide for the sheer love of it.
Your ideas regarding support for genocide are right-wing. Just like your sympathy for incels and your rejection of feminism. Your support for right wing ideology and policy is consistent.
I explained how the two are related. If you don't want to interact with me, don't.
Dude, you jumped into this conversation. I don't have much choice but to interact with you.
Also, for the record, I disagree with your characterization of me.
You can ignore me instead of belittling genocide and screaming that I'm a Russian shill. But then that would result in someone saying the genocide is bad without being screamed at, and you can't have that.
Then I'll amend it. Life sucks for everyone, not just the people you identify with. That's not feminism's fault. Quit whining about it.
Can't argue with that.
Literally.
I mean, you could state your case without accusing me of being a Russian shill, but that would require your position to be defensible.
🤷♂️
Friend, I love that you keep standing up to yourself. That user calls everyone who disagrees with him a "russian shill." And he's had plenty of comments removed for incivility.
Good on ya, for staying strong!
Every single woman I know wants a guy in touch with their emotions. And those who found them, married them.
Tell your friends to stop trying to date under 25 year olds. We get over that shit at about this age.
Cool, good for you. That's not the norm. At any age.