this post was submitted on 04 Jun 2024
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515
Report: Donald Trump has spent millions in possible witness tampering (www.nj.com)
submitted 2 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
35 comments fedilink hide all child comments
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[–] [email protected] 124 points 2 months ago (4 children)

I still want to know how an NDA that says you can't talk to law enforcement is (a) allowed, and (b) enforceable. If I were an investigator and heard about that, I'd want to know exactly what the company needed to hide so badly that they had to add that clause in.

And I said this in another post, but if you are ever asked to sign an NDA that says you can't cooperate with law enforcement, hand in your resignation and seek legal counsel. They're not asking you to sign it to protect you. They're asking you to sign it so when shit hits the fan (and it WILL hit the fan), you'll be the lackey who's stuck falling on their sword unless you want to be subject to a penalty that far exceeds what you were offered when you signed the NDA in the first place.

If they're saying "Here's a shitload of money, don't talk to the cops.", there's a reason for that. And it's probably not going to end well for you.

[–] [email protected] 72 points 2 months ago (2 children)

if you are ever asked to sign an NDA that says you can't cooperate with law enforcement

i don't think this is even enforceable

an nda is enforced by the justice system it's not going to enforce it against itself

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I think the NDA could restrict you from talking to law enforcement about what you had for breakfast and probably be enforceable but contracts can't be enforced if they'd require you to commit crimes or prevent you from reporting crimes.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The NDA was apparently against voluntarily cooperating with law enforcement. Essentially, it was agreeing to only cooperate to the extent required by law.

That's still bad, but wouldn't overtly compel someone to commit a crime. It's just heavily implying that crimes are being committed and could easily push someone to do something illegal simply to cover their own ass.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Sure, but all voluntary cooperation with law enforcement would still be allowed under that NDA. The NDA itself might be legal to ask someone to sign, but you can never restrict someone's right to report criminal activity (you're also never punished for choosing not to report criminal activity, but the right to report is inalienable).

Legal agreements frequently include unenforceable bullshit. For instance a contract may include a phrase like "Either party may consult a lawyer if they surrender 300$ to the other party" you can put that in a contract and someone might pay you 300$... but the ability to consult a lawyer is inalienable so you could also consult a lawyer and refuse to pay the 300$ and they'd have no recourse to force payment.

The TL;DR is that we let bad faith lawyers get away with writing extremely unfair contracts that pressure people to do something without actually having the backing of the law. If people challenge it they'll win - but we've gotten really lax and don't actually punish the contract authors so a lot of folks just write bullshit into contracts that'd never hold up in court in the hope that people just blindly obey it.

And the TL;DR TL;DR (yes, I do in fact have ADHD, how could you tell) is...

Always talk to a fucking lawyer.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

an nda is enforced by the justice system it's not going to enforce it against itself

It's not that simple. There are two main components to the legal system, civil and criminal. Civil is between two private parties (people, companies, and sometimes the government) for disputes with contracts and such. Criminal law is when the government brings changes against you for breaking the law.

Generally law enforcement ("the justice system") works on the criminal side of things. It doesn't really care about a contract between two people if something illegal is happening. Can you imagine the loopholes that could create in organized crime if you just had to write a contract and you couldn't use an otherwise willing accomplice as a witness?

[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

This is why criminal conduct automatically voids NDAs. You can sign it all day long. If you get called as a witness in a criminal trial, they can't do shit about it.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

What about before the trial, you know, like during the investigation that has to happen before a trial can be called?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Doesn't matter. Once the cops are talking to you about it the NDA is done.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Bingo, severability is the name of the game.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 months ago (3 children)

if it prohibits voluntary cooperation, probably ok. Involuntary cooperation (subpoena, etc) is compelled no matter what you signed - but I am not sure if an NDA prohibiting it is unlawful. (Though it’s definitely unenforceable)

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Even voluntary cooperation being okay is pretty wild, conceptually. What possible purpose could that serve but covering up crimes?

[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Suppose you work for an email provider and you agree not to talk to law enforcement about your customers' data without a subpoena. Seems pretty legit to me.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

Yknow, that's pretty reasonable. Thanks for a good example!

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

I imaging that this scenario would be regulated by data protection laws and contracts, not by NDAs.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

If that communication was about a user talking at being at a cafe on a certain day and law enforcement knew that a murder went down at that cafe, then I think it's enforceable, probably. If you're reading your server logs and see (and believe genuine) an email arranging a murder then your employer couldn't restrict you from reporting it to law enforcement.

You can't be compelled to criminal activity by a contract and nor can you be prevented from reporting criminal activity by a contract. Trump could get everyone in Trump tower to sign whatever contract he wanted but if he sexually assaulted someone in the lobby he'd have no legal grounds to prevent someone from reporting it to the police.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Does that imply that the NDA would spell out what they weren't supposed to talk to the police about, like customer records or something like that?

A blanket ban on speaking with the police would be pretty broad and likely stifle reporting of illegal activities.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

That's what I had in mind, yes. A blanket ban sounds super shady.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

No NDA can protect illegal activities.

Think about it. the enforcement of an NDA is going to go through the courts. “So what was the NDA protecting?”

“Your honor we paid the witness to answer a certain way” is… not going to end well. For anyone involved.

The only exception I’m aware of- and it’s not really one I’m sure of- is if you take a settlement from cops as a result of police misconduct.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

It is unlawful.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

But also: fuck the police; don't talk to the police; lawyer up.

[–] [email protected] 62 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's not even an allegation at this point, people are fucking bragging about it. Like this is the ONE TIME he pays people for work, and it's for lying. Totally on brand.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Campaign funds paid them, not him personally. Although he's surely grifting off the campaign and no doubt considers all that money his own.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Isn't that more of the same crime the trial was about?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

Yes. These bribes are something he would have done independently of the campaign so using campaign funds is a campaign finance violation AFAICT. I am not a lawyer.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I'm surprised he didn't stiff them.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago

Lol underrated.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 months ago

Lock him up!

[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 months ago

Grift, spend, repeat.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

Is this new on top for his already on going legal issues?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago

Oh no! We might think about scheduling a meeting to convene a council to possibly select a grand jury in five years!

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

Ew wtf is that thumbnail get it away