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submitted 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

The Israeli government insists that Hamas formally sanctioned sexual assault on October 7, 2023. But investigators say the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny. Catherine Philp and Gabrielle Weiniger report on eight months of claim and counter-claim

Talk of rape began circulating almost before the massacres themselves were over. Much of it came from what Patten would later call “non-professionals” who supplied “inaccurate and unreliable forensic interpretations” of what they found, creating an instant but flawed narrative about what had taken place.

Meanwhile, the political establishment has opened a fresh battle with the UN over what the Patten report didn’t say: that sexual violence was beyond reasonable doubt, systematic, widespread and ordered and perpetrated by Hamas. Israeli advocates for the female survivors are now warning that the country’s refusal to co-operate with a full and legal investigation, which the carefully worded report was not, threatens the prospect of ever finding out the full truth about the sexual violence of October 7 and delivering justice for its victims.

It was not a legal investigation, Patten explained, as Israel had not allowed one: that mandate could only be fulfilled by the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, which Israel has refused to work with since its inception. She hoped that would change.

Patten made it clear there was sufficient evidence of acts of sexual violence to merit full and proper investigation and expressed her shock at the brutality of the violence. The report also confirmed Israeli authorities were unable to provide much of the evidence that political leaders had insisted existed. In all the Hamas video footage Patten’s team had watched and all the photographs they had seen, there were no depictions of rape. We hired a leading Israeli dark-web researcher to look for evidence of those images, including footage deleted from public sources. None could be found.

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[-] [email protected] 38 points 3 weeks ago

Israel has been anally raping Palestinians with electric rods and electrocuting them to death.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 3 weeks ago

Hey this comment is getting reported for misinformation. Can you link please provide a source for this information?

[-] [email protected] 31 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

A leaked draft of the UNRWA report detailed an interview that gave a similar account. It cited a 41-year-old detainee who said that interrogators “made me sit on something like a hot metal stick and it felt like fire,” and also said that another detainee “died after they put the electric stick up” his anus.

https://archive.is/pY54n

I hope you ban the people reporting misinformation for false reports.

[-] [email protected] 27 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

To any zionist who's found their way into this comments section. Do you think that Israeli soldiers and leadership should be judged for the sexual assault of Palestinians with the same severity as Hamas members who committed, allowed or promoted sexual violence against their captured prisoners? Who should conduct the appropriate investigation and trial?

UN experts demand investigation into claims Israeli forces killed, raped and sexually assaulted Palestinian women and girls

Palestinians ‘beaten and sexually assaulted’ at Israeli detention centres, UN report claims

Israel’s use of rape against Palestinian detainees from Gaza exposed

[-] [email protected] 12 points 3 weeks ago

Not a Zionist by any means, but happy to answer in case it's directed in my direction

Do you think that Israeli soldiers and leadership should be judged for the sexual assault of Palestinians with the same severity as Hamas members who committed, allowed or promoted sexual violence against their captured prisoners?

Yes. (Actually more severity for a couple of different reasons.)

This is the type of question that's super easy to answer. Yes, anyone on any side who is raping should be punished. That's, honestly, my whole point in getting all up in arms about "let's not worry about that rape because of which side is doing it" narratives like OP's.

Who should conduct the appropriate investigation and trial?

The ICC

[-] [email protected] 6 points 3 weeks ago

in case it’s directed in my direction

I mean zionists specifically because I see some from time to time justifying the extreme damage Israel has committed against civilians, some making a lot of effort to paint Hamas as a bunch of barbarians to further support that position. I only remember seeing you in this thread, and from your posts in it, you don't seem to be doing that.

That’s, honestly, my whole point in getting all up in arms about “let’s not worry about that rape because of which side is doing it” narratives like OP’s.

Bit off-topic in this comment chain (it would fit yours better) but: whenever I've seen someone or an organization pushing positions such as OP's article, there are a few valid reasons:

  • Some media did rush to claim sexual violence far before they had any evidence of it, especially soon after the 7th of October, which should be scrutinized.

  • There are differences between: A) Sexual violence committed by an individual or a few, B) That violence being tolerated by their superiors, and C) That violence being supported by their superiors. This distinction is important, since a very large organization having monsters in its ranks isn't statistically strange (and modern, well-run organizations make sure to punish those monsters and bringing them to one form of justice or another), but that organization not taking measures against those monsters or even promoting their behavior is far more serious.

  • Plenty of media has ignored and continues to ignore the previous differences, and now that there is evidence of A, they use it to claim C.

  • Those bad journalistic practices get used to promote violence against innocent Palestinians and support jingoistic horror.

Personally, I had no doubt that there would be monsters in Hamas who would abuse the prisoners in their captivity, but the organization itself has an interest in making sure that the prisoners who make it out alive say that they were treated humanely (as we've seen with some of them). Attacking civilians and taking them hostage is already really terrible to start with, but noting what's being done out of logical political goals and what's being done out of sheer sadism is important. If we compare Hamas with the Israeli government and army, we do currently already have evidence that the latter do at the very least tolerate abuse of Palestinian prisoners, apparently with gleeful support from much of Israel since they celebrate that violence by sharing it in social media.

Could there be people taking positions aesthetically close to mine who are, however, defending them in bad faith, as they just want to shield Hamas? There must be some, but the environment is heated enough that anyone who doesn't take a nuanced enough position is going to be called out sooner than later. Although figuring out the most reasonable positions is far more important, in my view.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Some media did rush to claim sexual violence far before they had any evidence of it, especially soon after the 7th of October, which should be scrutinized.

The Israeli government made up some crazy imaginary shit that they had been victims of, because that's in their DNA at this point, and some people in the press believed them who should have known better. But also, there was a flood of victims of the attack who came back saying they had been raped. That infamous NYT story consists of a whole bunch of accurate information and then a couple made up stories from Israel's government, and for some reason everyone remembers it as all made up or a rush to judgement or whatever, when the main thrust of the article was true (as validated by the later in-depth UN investigation which found a shitload of evidence of systemic rape whether sanctioned or otherwise.)

There are differences between: A) Sexual violence committed by an individual or a few, B) That violence being tolerated by their superiors, and C) That violence being supported by their superiors. This distinction is important, since a very large organization having monsters in its ranks isn't statistically strange (and modern, well-run organizations make sure to punish those monsters and bringing them to one form of justice or another), but that organization not taking measures against those monsters or even promoting their behavior is far more serious.

I... more or less agree with this. I think you might be understating the scale of Hamas's sexual violence or the degree to which it's sanctioned by their leadership. But yes, Israel's in more of a position of power, and they're more organized about it; I agree. I honestly don't even want to compare the degree of cruelty involved on the two sides because what's the point; they're both horrible.

Personally, I had no doubt that there would be monsters in Hamas who would abuse the prisoners in their captivity, but the organization itself has an interest in making sure that the prisoners who make it out alive say that they were treated humanely (as we've seen with some of them). Attacking civilians and taking them hostage is already really terrible to start with, but noting what's being done out of logical political goals and what's being done out of sheer sadism is important.

I think you should read the UN report, if you have not. I'm not aware of any attempt at treating the prisoners, or deceased victims of the violence before they died, humanely. From the organization or the individuals. Do you have a source for this, like interviews with hostages where they said they were treated humanely, or something? What's in the UN report describes the exact opposite of that.

I wouldn't try to excuse Hamas just because their root cause is just. Israel specifically props up Hamas and funds them because they are the most violent and corrupt faction in Palestine, and they will do monstrous things which can then be used to "justify" Israel's crimes which it wanted to do anyway.

Although figuring out the most reasonable positions is far more important, in my view.

Honestly, like I say, to me it's not super complicated. Punish the guilty (which in large part means stop shielding Israel from prosecution for their crimes; certainly no one is making much of any attempt to shield Palestine from the consequences of Hamas's crimes.) How to do that and how to arrive at peace is complex, but "is this war crime that whatever people did, a war crime" is a lot simpler: The answer is yes.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I think you should read the UN report, if you have not

I'll give it a look later. You linked it in this thread, correct?

Do you have a source for this, like interviews with hostages where they said they were treated humanely, or something?

From the first few weeks of the conflict:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/freed-israeli-hostage-says-she-was-well-treated-after-initial-violence-2023-10-24/

From her words, it looked like the conditions were terrible, but they made efforts to try and minimize the harm. It's likely that the treatment they gave the hostages varied wildly.

Honestly, like I say, to me it’s not super complicated. Punish the guilty (which in large part means stop shielding Israel from prosecution for their crimes; certainly no one is making much of any attempt to shield Palestine from the consequences of Hamas’s crimes.) How to do that and how to arrive at peace is complex, but “is this war crime that whatever people did, a war crime” is a lot simpler: The answer is yes.

Agreed with everything here.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago

I'll give it a look later. You linked it in this thread, correct?

Yeah. This is their press release with the quick summary, and this is the full report.

From her words, it looked like the conditions were terrible, but they made efforts to try and minimize the harm. It's likely that the treatment they gave the hostages varied wildly.

Yeah, agreed. I'd imagine there's a lot of variability.

The report talks about what they found interviewing returned hostages on page 18:

  1. The mission team reviewed incidents of alleged sexual violence related to hostages in Gaza. Based on the first-hand accounts of released hostages, the mission team received clear and convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children during their time in captivity and has reasonable grounds to believe that this violence may be ongoing.

  2. Based on first-hand accounts of released hostages there are reasonable grounds to believe that female hostages were also subjected to other forms of sexual violence.

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[-] [email protected] 12 points 3 weeks ago

Reddit was in a frenzy over the claim on October 7 itself. The major basis behind it was a video of an Israeli prisoner with what appeared to be blood on the back of her pants. The major worldnews sub banned anyone who questioned the claim. Weeks later it turned out that the blood on her bottom was because she had cut her ankle and was sitting or kneeling in the back of the truck and got it on her pants, not that she had been raped like many assumed.

[-] [email protected] 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

They should have asked Annalena Baerbock she has seen the videos.

Out of curiosity, if this is ever legally recognized as a genocide, is there anything human-rights law or international law says about people knowingly spreading lies in support of it?

Edit: And will she be just as vigilant about Israel systematically raping prisoners as a form of torture (something for which there actually exists multiple sources).

[-] [email protected] 8 points 3 weeks ago

I can't speak for that specific article but nachdenkseiten.de is usually full of shit. They spread misinformation and are nazi apologists. Please be careful with your sources and try to verify information you read online.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

What a video in that article

Journalist: Can you confirm that you have seen video evidence of rape? The israeli government claims there is none

German official: are you saying that you don't believe the government of israel?! Shame on you!

Journalist: No you said you saw footage of it and the israeli government says it does not exist

German official: Rape denier! Rape denier!

Yep that sums it up

[-] [email protected] 8 points 3 weeks ago

I only read the article before, but Christ that video is shocking. He just intensionally twists the question three times, and then accuses the journalist of not doing his job for only citing two sources (the fucking Israeli government and the UN). Plus the moderator constantly interrupting the journalists while the government is just obviously lying. Staatsräson in action.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 3 weeks ago

FWIW, The Times is a center-right publication that's somewhat more factually accurate in their reporting than the New York Times is. So it's kind of a big deal for them to admit that there just isn't any evidence other than extremely suspicious claims about any widespread, systematic sexual violence.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Hello!

This article is a masterclass in slant. It's not attempting to cast any doubt on whether the report shows evidence that Hamas was and still is doing a bunch of sexual assault (to which the answer is pretty clearly yes.) Instead, it does some extensive hand-wringing over related but debatable questions, so as to create out of thin air an aura of controversy and flawed reporting where none exists.

Instead of asking:

  • Did Hamas rape anybody?

They ask:

  • Did this investigation find evidence that Hamas formally sanctioned sexual assault by its troops? (which is a separate question from, did it happen, but even whether the official sanction happened at all is pretty irrelevant as compared with whether the rape happened)
  • Was the investigation a legal investigation? Or just a team of experts gathering evidence and interviewing witnesses as they visited the sites where assaults were alleged to have taken place and then presenting their findings?
  • Did anyone find videos of Hamas raping people on the dark web?

It's a bunch of crap. The UN's press release summarizes the report that this article concerns pretty comprehensively, although the full report is also very accessible if you want to see some details or skip to some particular section of their conclusions and see exactly what they were and how they conducted their investigation and what they did and didn't find.

From the report:

"Based on the information gathered by the mission team from multiple and independent sources, there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the 7 October attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations."

"With respect to hostages, the mission team found clear and convincing information that some have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence including rape and sexualized torture and sexualized cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and it also has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing."

That's the important part. Creating an artificial debate couched in slanted language over, was this a legal investigation or some other type of investigation, or were we able to find a Hamas fighter who was willing to confirm to a UN investigative team that his commander said it was okay if he did some raping, is a bunch of crap.

(That's separate from the issue of this person I've never heard of, saying that making false claims of rape would cause the Israeli government to work harder to release the hostages. That doesn't make a ton of sense to me and the rest of the article is so explicitly propagandist that I'm highly skeptical.)

Hey @[email protected] - I asked you for some details on your argument that Hamas couldn't have been raping anybody because that one released hostage didn't look pregnant. Do you want to restart that conversation?

I'm also happy to cite the evidence for anything I'm saying here or anything you want to ask about; I got tired of doing it after the first three times, the last time you posted basically this same article, but this is a whole new thread, so if you want to try just claiming confidently again that some particular things aren't in the report, I'm happy to show you where they are in the report.

[-] [email protected] 15 points 3 weeks ago

I get what you’re saying but I’m pretty sure it matters in international law for additional charges against Hamas leadership. There’s, tragically, sexual violence in basically every conflict, and individuals who do it have committed a crime for sure. But proving it’s systematic and used as a tactic would make higher ups in Hamas guilty of (even more) war crimes.

So, it is important for prosecuting Hamas leadership that there be a proper, legal investigation and that it be proven to be either knowingly allowed or (even worse) ordered as a tactic.

Obviously, Hamas and Israel have both committed enough war crimes already that the senior leadership will likely be found guilty of something at The Hague (if ever arrested). But properly accounting for all of the war crimes is important for both justice and history.

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[-] [email protected] 6 points 3 weeks ago

Thanks for the details and the evidences

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[-] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

The overwhelming majority of all armies of all time have weaponized rape. As I understand it Israel is doing the same damned thing. There are no good guys in this fucking war, only monsters and victims.

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[-] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago

Pramila Patten, the Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict stated that:

“It was a catalogue of the most extreme and inhumane forms of killing, torture and other horrors,” including sexual violence.

https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm

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this post was submitted on 10 Jun 2024
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