this post was submitted on 19 Dec 2023

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submitted 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 71 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

When Bernie starts saying shit like this my opinion of him will change:

"You don't know how happy I am today. For the first time in the history of this country, we've managed to put a communist on the Supreme Court, a comrade of the quality of Flávio Dino"

Those south american socdems hit different.

Under no circumstances would any of our global north socdems say something overtly praising putting communists in positions of power. With perhaps the sole exception of Jeremy Corbyn who was quite obviously only a socdem of necessity, it's clearly not his actual ideology.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

To be honest, I was shocked when he said that. Lula, and the Worker's Party as a whole, usually shy away from name-dropping Communism, let alone openly praising it.

Lula is usually worried with having support from the right-leaning Congress, and honestly, he needs that support to be allowed to do anything as president, and openly saying what he said is sure to get him a lot of criticism.

Still, it was a nice surprise to hear that.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 11 months ago

When bolsonaro stans attacked the airport, Lula denounced the “Stalinists” alongside the reactionaries but then paused and corrected himself, saying “Wait, no. Not the stalinists” then continued denouncing the reactionaries lol

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Name-dropping communism astonishes you? Would Pol Pot astonish you?

[–] [email protected] 29 points 11 months ago

Yeah, cause I thought he was dead. He's a pretty astonishing guy in many other ways as well.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 11 months ago (1 children)

jesse-wtf

[–] [email protected] 26 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

You clearly don't know Brazilian politics, but I already explained how unusual that is for a leftist politician like Lula who tries to appear moderate to appease the right. He straight up said he was very happy because for the first time ever, the supreme court will have a communist minister (appointed by him). Dino being a communist was a fact that only the opposition was using, to attack him and his appointment for the supreme court.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 11 months ago (1 children)

"They accuse us of being communists, as if we would be offended by that. We are not offended."

"We would be offended if they called us Nazis, neofascists, terrorists. But never a communist, a socialist. That doesn't offend us. It makes us proud many times."

Lula - 2023

[–] [email protected] 16 points 11 months ago

Not gonna lie, I don't remember that speech, but that was super based too!

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

My only point is that many people have name-dropped communism in history, and many of these people were counterrevolutionaries, reactionaries, utopians, liberals, social-democrats etc.

I don’t care that Lula thinks a communist is cool. I care whether Lula is communist, whether Lula belongs to a revolutionary communist party, whether the party is firmly linked with the masses and is actively fighting for the concerns of the masses — I could keep going but these things are not true. But yes it is true that Lula praised a communist. So did Pol Pot.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Under no circumstances would any of our global north socdems say something overtly praising putting communists in positions of power.

I think they do pop off, once or twice, before they get piled on by liberals and social fascists. Sanders was openly complimentary of Chavez's Venezuela, Ortega's Nicaragua, and Castro's Cuba a decade ago. Rashida Tlaib has been a vocal advocate for Palestinian resistance in Gaza as recently as a few weeks ago. You can find comparable statements from AOC, Ilhan Omar, and Cori Bush, particularly early on in their first campaigns and terms in office.

With perhaps the sole exception of Jeremy Corbyn who was quite obviously only a socdem of necessity, it's clearly not his actual ideology.

Corbyn is a great case study in how the national far-right media treats anyone even tacitly supportive of left wing governments and organizations. The British Press has made it some kind of contest to see how many times they can demand everyone in the Labour Party condemn Hamas, as a result of his Palestinian advocacy. Every third question in any given interview boils down to "Do you condemn?"

So there's a certain amount of attrition that occurs, as even the tangentially left-wing Congresscritters and Parliamentarians avoid these issues entirely because of the way the press hounds them in the most annoying way possible. Because national right-wing media narratives whip up constituencies into a confused and angry lather, and because left-wing media in this country is heavily curtailed and censored, it is difficult to have a coherent conversation about foreign policy that doesn't end with a bunch of liberals accusing a sitting Congresswoman of being the unibomber.

[+] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

[deleted]

[–] [email protected] 13 points 11 months ago

“There were a lot of folks in Cuba at that point who were illiterate. He formed the literacy brigade,” Sanders said. “(Castro) went out and they helped people learn to read and write. You know what, I think teaching people to read and write is a good thing.”

He added: “I have been extremely consistent and critical of all authoritarian regimes all over the world including Cuba, including Nicaragua, including Saudi Arabia, including China, including Russia. I happen to believe in democracy, not authoritarianism.”

...

“You may recall way back in, when was it,1961 they invaded Cuba and the, everybody was totally convinced the Castro was the worst guy in the world. All the Cuban people were going to rise up in rebellion against Fidel Castro,” Sanders said, discussing the logic behind the Kennedy administration’s failed Bay of Pigs coup. “They had forgotten that he educated the kids, gave them health care, totally transformed the society.”

“You know, not to say that Fidel Castro or Cuba are perfect, they are certainly not,” he said. “But just because Ronald Reagan dislikes these people does not mean to say that the people in their own nations feel the same way.”

...

“The revolution (in Cuba) is far deeper and more profound than I had understood it to be” and encompassed more than economic policy. “It is a revolution of values in which people, instead of working for their own personal wealth, work for the common good.”

...

“President Kennedy was elected while I was at the University of Chicago, that was 1960. I remember being physically nauseated by his speech and that doesn’t happen often. He debated Nixon on Cuba. And their hatred for the Cuban Revolution, both of them, was so strong,” Sanders said. “Kennedy was young and appealing and ostensibly liberal, but I think at that point, seeing through Kennedy, and what liberalism was, was probably a significant step for me to understand that conventional politics or liberalism was not what was relevant.”

...

Sanders in the 1980s said Ortega had the right, as the leader of his country, to meet with the Soviets and offered a review of the Nicaraguan government under Ortega that echoed his comments on Castro’s Cuba.

“Is it a totalitarian country? No, it is not a totalitarian country. Are there civil liberties. Yeah, there are civil liberties. Is it a perfectly free country? No, it most certainly is not. Is it freer than of the most of the countries in Central America? Yeah, it is,” Sanders said. “Within the context of the misery and the lack of democracy in Central America, it holds up reasonably well. Is the Nicaraguan government always right? The answer is absolutely not. Have they made mistakes? Sure they have.”

...

“What surprised me about the trip to the Soviet Union was the strong degree of friendship and openness that both Soviet officials and ordinary officials have to us both is Yaroslavl and the other cities,” Sanders said. “Both the officials and the people were extremely generous and warm and I was very surprised by the degree in fact they like Americans and admire Americans.”

He attributed the ostensibly open conversation to his own willingness to speak directly about issues facing his own country, with specific mentions of the expensive housing and the outsized cost of medical care in the US.

“The other observation that I would make is that I was surprised to the degree of self-criticism, which Soviet officials were prepared to make about their own society,” Sanders said of the notoriously closed and violent Soviet government. “Frankly, I thought they would be there to tell us that everything is wonderful and that certainly was not the case. For example, they are absolutely open in acknowledging that they are not a democratic society.”