this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2024

58 points (98.3% liked)

askchapo

22821 readers

182 users here now

Ask Hexbear is the place to ask and answer ~~thought-provoking~~ questions.

Rules:

Posts must ask a question.
If the question asked is serious, answer seriously.
Questions where you want to learn more about socialism are allowed, but questions in bad faith are not.
Try [email protected] if you're having questions about regarding moderation, site policy, the site itself, development, volunteering or the mod team.

founded 4 years ago

MODERATORS

[email protected]

In All Seriousness: PSL or Greens? (hexbear.net)

submitted 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

50 comments fedilink hide all child comments

There's been a lot of memes going around, but I genuinely have a question. If PSL were on the ballot, I would obviously vote for them. However, they're write-in only in my state. Would writing in PSL have the same effect, or could the vote more easily be invalid or ignored.

In other words, is it better to vote for Greens if PSL is write-in only?

EDIT: THANKS FOR INPUT! I've decided to write in Hilary Clinton, have a wonderful day!

But really probably writing in PSL. Elections don't matter too much though, so I'm ever in an area where PSL is active, I'll make sure to join (which has been the plan for a while). Thanks again!

top 50 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] [email protected] 52 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Doesn't matter in the grand scheme. If one is on your ballot and not the other, vote the easy one. If they're both write ins or both on the ballot pick whichever one you like best. If neither are write ins or on the ballot leave it blank.

At least in the case of the greens, Jill Stein is not running to win president. She is running because she has to run for president in order for down ticket greens to be eligible to be on the ballot. Those down ticket greens could actually win and do sometimes in local elections so that's why she's on the ballot.

PSL is on the ballot for publicity and to spread discussion and conversation about socialist values.

Both of these are valid reasons to be on the ballot and both of these are valid reasons to receive a vote. Both parties are anti genocide and neither will win so it's not too big of a difference either way.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 months ago (2 children)

She is running because she has to run for president in order for down ticket greens to be eligible to be on the ballot.

where can I read more about this? is this partisan ballots or something?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

List of 150 greens in Office

Yeah like local offices. The Green Party is very adamant about not recieving corporate money. They believe in people powered elections and representstion. The presidential election helps establish certain thresholds for public funding and ballot access instead of having to "start over" in signature drives just to be on the ballot in local and state elections. Public funding is funded by people who check on their tax returns the $3 to public election funding.

You'll hear this 5% threshold mentioned often and this is the reason why.

Receiving a public funding grant for the general election - FEC.GOV

Public funding for major party presidential nominees in the general election takes the form of a grant of $20 million plus the difference in the price index. (The general election grant for 2024 is $123.5 million.) To be eligible to receive public funds, the presidential nominee of a major party must agree to limit spending to the amount of the grant and may not accept private contributions for the campaign.

Minor party candidates and new party candidates may qualify for partial general election funding, based on their party's electoral performance, or upon the candidates' electoral performance in the preceding election year. Although minor and new party candidates may supplement public funds with private contributions and may exempt some fundraising costs from their expenditure limit, they are otherwise subject to the same spending limit and other requirements that apply to major party candidates.

....

Minor party candidates: A minor party candidate is the nominee of a party whose candidate received between 5 and 25 percent of the total popular vote in the preceding presidential election. The amount of public funding to which a minor party candidate is entitled is based on the ratio of the party's popular vote in the preceding presidential election to the average popular vote of the two major party candidates in that election.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Since the Greens have never breached 5% (highest 2.7% for Nader), would that mean they have never received FEC funding for their presidential campaigns?

I know that Greens are in local offices obviously, that work is good, but I don't understand how specifically running Stein is required for "down ticket greens to be eligible to be on the ballot" as Infamousbit said. Seems to me that she's running for the same reason PSL is.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It depends on the state as each state has different ballot access requirements for down ballot candidates. Say you want to run as a Green or PSL candiate for state office. Does the state recognize the party and thus put your name on the ballot without having to resort to costly signature drives for both party recognition and putting yourself in as a write-in?

Many of them have requirements of X% of the vote of Y office for their major candidate in the last election. Major candidate being the Presidential candidate. You'll have the whole state vote for president rather than a single local district office. Much easier to get say 20k votes from the whole state rather than one district.

I.E. Michigan

Maintaining party status

In order to maintain qualified status, a party's principal candidate (i.e., the party's candidate who receives the greatest number of votes of all candidates fielded by the party in a particular election) must win at least 1 percent of the total number of votes cast for the successful candidate for secretary of state in the most recent election for that office. For example, in 2010, 1,608,270 votes were cast for the successful candidate for secretary of state, meaning that a party's principal candidate had to win at least 16,083 votes for the party to retain qualified status. A party that fails to meet this requirement must petition again for state recognition.

So for example, if you want future Green party down ballot candidates to be able to have an easier time getting on the ballot, Jill Stein (Presidential Candidate) needed to 16,083 votes for the Green Party to keep their status in Michigan ballot elections. Otherwise they would be subject to grueling and expensive (which are getting worse as 3rd parties become more of a real threat) signature drives to regain their status with the state.

Yes there are advocacy for issues, and promoting the party that comes along with it.

The after effects of Nader yielded a few states getting over 5% percentage for the Greens as Governor candidates.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

Thanks. This is the most thorough treatment I've seen of higher races leading to lower ballot access.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago

I don't know for sure. Google I guess? I just heard her in an interview on Democracy Now and that's what she was saying. I don't think she'd have much reason to lie about it in that space

[–] [email protected] 37 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Write-ins are counted just like any other candidate on the ballot so long as the candidate is eligible for write-in. Stupid country stupid electoral process but that is the way it is.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago (1 children)

In many states you have to be an official write-in candidate. Then you have to make sure you follow the rules on what to write. I had to ask my registrar office for a list of official write-ins because I could not find them posted online.

Some states the whole ballot is void of you enter someone in the write in section who shouldn't be there. So that's your down ballot and ballot questions rejected too.

Thankfully in my state they machine count all the selections and flag the write in for hand count so you don't invalidate the whole ballot.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

depends on the race and state. NYC municipal elections count every write-in for example, and keep a public record of those results.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Yeah I think Shane Gillis got a write in or two in NYC last election.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I checked and Matt Christman got 1 vote in the last mayoral election, which is incredible considering he had moved to LA by that point.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

A couple that shopped at the store I used to work at wrote me in after Bernie got ratfucked lol

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

I didn't know you're running, but you have my vote

[–] [email protected] 36 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I say vote PSL if you want a socialist revolution in this country. While your vote won't, you know, create it or mean that Claudia and Karina will win, what it will mean is yet one more person out of tens or hundreds of thousands who says "I support a socialist option in this country".

A vote for the PSL, especially in a write-in state, is an indicator for desire for a socialist option, and a way to record this for the historical record and for existing socialist parties who are trying to decide where their potential base may be.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

done! my partner also voted PSL after she found out i did

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

Care-Comrade

Thank you comrade, with how much work and energy we've put into the campaign it means a lot

[–] [email protected] 36 points 2 months ago

It doesn't matter but I'm voting PSL to maximize the explicitly socialist numbers.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The Green VP candidate has been melting down about the Uygurs for like a week now. Clown party

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago

Disappointing to hear, I caught some of his interviews and had a generally positive impression of him.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 2 months ago

I don't know why this has to be mutually exclusive. I drink a pumpkin spice latte when I'm eating my greens all the time!

But yeah, seriously, what comrade @[email protected] said for a real answer.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 2 months ago (2 children)

It doesn't really matter lol. We keep telling people that voting for Harris won't change anything, well neither will voting 3rd party. Vote however you feel.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 months ago

Vibes-based voting

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

It's not that I think votes make 0% difference, it's just that I think they make 0.001% difference, and should be given the same percentage of one's thought and effort.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 2 months ago

If you live in a state where Jill Stein could actually cost kamala the election, vote for Stein

[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I think the biggest impact a third party vote could have is to have a third party turnout high enough that news casters have to actually mention it, which the Greens are much more likely to achieve.

Also Jill Stein got arrested at an anti-genocide protest this year, which is pretty cool.

My heart still says PSL though.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 months ago

I think the biggest impact a third party vote could have is to have a third party turnout high enough that news casters have to actually mention it

I'll up that to the biggest impact is taking the state away from a dem or a rep candidate so you'd actually matter politically

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago

It doesnt matter. I voted PSL because they align with my values the most, but also i think that just being on ballots, knocking on doors, and trying to make "socialism" be an acceptable and available choice all while drawing attention to dem hypocrisy is a win

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago

in all seriousness what does it matter? if you're going to worry about the elections just vote for the democrat.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

ITS HER TURN!

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

Apparently my state only has the two pseudo-state parties on the ballot so I’ll write in PSL

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago

PSL

then vote on your ballot initiatives in my state we vote to enshrine abortion rights for instance

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

Either (1) which ever one is polling highest or (2) it doesn't matter.

I'm going with 'doesn't matter' and will just do a vibes check

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Okay, I'll not ask anyone in this thread in particular, but since there are so many PSL voters can someone please explain to me why anyone should vote PSL?

The argument made for the Greens about down ticket candidates makes sense. PSL has none of that, as far as I am aware and I sincerely apologize for my ignorance in advance if I'm mistaken, so it's really just for promotional purposes. If the PSL did have down ticket, local candidates running, then I would totally understand and think it's a good strategy but they don't (again, as far as I know). Why don't they run local candidates for any and every office that they could potentially win in areas where they're active? It seems to me like they're not ready to win offices, or don't want to, which makes me feel like it's pointless to vote for them or even organize with them if this is the way they're going. Even if what they want is to get their name out, the local route with real wins and neighborhood organizing is way more effective in addition to the national campaign rather than the impossible, routine, and probably costly Presidential campaign every 4 years and some marches. If they even won the election, by some logistical miracle, it would be rendered meaningless because they have no one else in positions of power below them and they haven't built up their support over the years.

For the record, as I've said many times, I want to like the PSL and generally think they have good politics and I voted for them many years ago but I don't agree with or understand this strategy so I don't see the point in doing it again. I'm also not voting for anyone anyway so I'm not saying this in favor of Greens or to argue against the PSL or anything. I just really don't see the point but I'm willing to concede I'm wrong.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's recognizing that if it's just tallying how many people are anti-establishment, you might as well put it towards a party that takes principled stances on things and could plausibly do something if it accrued political power.

But for the time being, "Look how many of us are communists", and a barometer for the reach of the party.

(I'm an anarchist communist who's often critical of PSL, but I'm still open to working with them and will vote for them)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That's one of the least important reasons to vote PSL, in my opinion.

Communists and radicals will always be a small minority in most countries under capitalism, and probably have been even at the outset of most revolutions. It's only after taking power and changing people's material conditions that we'll see typical people identifying with Communism. Take into consideration the fact that we're talking about the electorate in the US and multiply that by a thousand. Numbers of Communists or people voting for Communists in the US is dismally low and will stay that way for a long time. We don't need PSL to run a national campaign for that poll. It's a terrible reason to focus on a Presidential campaigns over building local support through campaigns and wins, honestly.

But, again, hope I'm wrong and I hope PSL does well and grows.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Ok I agree that organizational work is way more important, but I'm not about to join PSL specifically, so what are the more important reasons to vote PSL that you were thinking of?

load more comments (1 replies)

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

the strategy seems like a deep theoretical blunder to me, the cost of running a candidate every 4 years has gotta be a large amount, probably enough to employ one or two professional revolutionaries full time. Theyre supposed to be a revolutionary party but i dont think ive seen a single one of their theoretical works be recommended in communist spaces maybe ever?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

The organizational muscles need to build a large party apparatus and connect with the community need to be built, the party isn't merely a spring that can be shot all at once but a rolling snowball that'll turn into an avalanche. There's lots of effective work that the party does nationwide, but these campaigns are a great way to get an ML party in people's faces and a way for the national level of the party to coordinate work between local branches and members and find systemic issues of organization in the party exposed by this effort

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The fact that we're talking about and debating this is the point of running a candidate. The Party and it's members have to flex their organizational muscles and work towards building the scaffolding for a truly meaningful and truly revolutionary party in the future; and running a campaign to highlight for many how much of a scam the elections are has been extremely effective in the past and continues to now be extremely effective in putting the PSL at the forefront of conversation for anti-imperialist movements.

We won't win, we just have a great excuse to talk to people at a point when they're having their lack of meaningful governing power highlighted by the genocide and the election.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Thanks for your responses but, thinking about it further, I'm still not convinced this is a good strategy. Not that my opinion matters much and I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think starting with multiple, failed, impossible Presidential campaigns is the way to go about doing this. They should be focused on doing local campaigns, in my opinion. It would do a lot more to get people "talking about" PSL.

We're "talking about" PSL because this is a niche Communist website, I assure you almost no one outside radical circles is "talking about" PSL.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I understand where you're coming from, but I should highlight that branches of the PSL do participate in local struggles, I can even speak for local struggles here where we've made headway; and a huge part of the PSL's notoriety at this point is due to various branch's participation in and headlining of local pro-Palestinian struggle. However, I should share that being on the ground itself the presidential campaign has been a great way to connect with people outside of "radical circles", even ignoring the organizational and strategic benefits that it's brought.

By running a campaign which shows how bankrupt both candidates are, we're not only clearing the way for future growth (ala the periods of major upheavel between the two parties like the rise of the Populist Party) but also highlighting to regular working people how our system has fundamental contradictions with common sense humanity and how it needs to be corrected. People really aren't stupid, they're able to see when they're being played, and this campaign and what it ultimately highlights as the solution is effective for just those people who realize they're being played. This is outreach to the majority of people, with the benefit of spurring discussion among people who would be amenable to working with or within a well organized party structure.

If you're interested in more justifications for this policy by the party, an article is available here on Liberation School. I think ultimately even if we end up disagreeing on this, the results will show for themselves whether this contributed towards building a nationwide anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist party and movement in the United States.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Oh, okay, good to know about the local campaigns! That's really my only critique, I don't really see a big problem running a Presidential campaign if they're also doing local campaigns. I've asked about this before but no one responded so I figured it wasn't happening. So, they are running for local offices too?

Also, just out of curiosity if you happen to know, is PSL doing outreach for the Presidential campaign outside of areas with current chapters or only in areas where there is a current chapter?

Thanks again for your responses! It does help but sorry for the questions. (I did read the article but what you said was more convincing.)

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

Greens

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

PSL

Ware (Stein's running mate) is going around being an anti-communist shit head right now, spouting off about Uighurs and loonie lefties and tankies

If you're going to do a symbolic protest vote, at least vote for the good candidate and not the half assed one

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Reality check: nothing you put there has any effect, and you shouldn't lie to yourself about that. Any choice you make beyond refusing to vote for either of the candidates giving full-throated support for genocide is entirely for your own self-gratification and nothing more. It won't change anyone's mind, it won't build a party, it won't make one iota of material difference in the world.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

I'd personally argue it has about one iota of material difference. Like literally the smallest possible effect. Voting isn't useless, it's just very very incredibly useless.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

I'm either writing in Hunter Biden or Xi.