chapotraphouse

Hate to say it but, wtf does this mean anyway? Does the left have anything to offer to Russia, China, etc? What does it mean for us to support them, or to withdraw our support?

My honest and most realistic appraisal is that our support means nothing, we have nothing to offer, and any engagement in discourse about the moral or political value of the projects of the Russian state or the Chinese state is basically fruitless when the discussion among those in the halls of power is so far removed from our discussion that the difference between the most fervently critical Anarchist comrade and the most ridiculously pro-SMO ML is completely irrelevant. It's not exactly arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but functionally it's just as useless of a discussion. If we all agree that we have to show up at protests resisting the MIC, calling for peace, supporting leftist local politicians, and doing everything we can to raise union membership, what difference does it make that I 'stan China' but you 'critically support Putin despite Duginist elements in the Russian government'? Is it not just as fruitless as political compass memes? Because from where I'm looking it literally is just PCM for people that have read the manifesto. The only value of the argument is to intellectually deduce the truth, a project that's completely separate to actually achieving political power.

And yes, where you land in the spectrum of supporting Russia and China can influence which political party in your area to support, but practically the only material difference a minority party will make is whether it's going to support sanctions and tariffs against Russia and China, or it won't. However, not to No True Scotsman, but no true leftist party is going to jump on such a blatantly neoliberal and imperialist position as to economically punish 2 of the largest populations on Earth while knowing how little effect those sanctions will have on the ruling classes of the target states. So we're back to square 1, regardless of your position, the actions you can take regarding Russia and China are the same.

Just to finish off the rant, here's a comment from 72T that I found really insightful. TL;DR the question isn't, "should we support a multipolar world," because we have no power to change that reality, whether it's going to arrive or not is entirely out of our hands. The question is "what is to be done about the incoming multipolar world," especially locally, with regards to how it affects our approach to building power.

No shade on JT though, as far as the question exists in a vacuum that's a good answer.

I def get schadenfreude from Russia being a pain in the ass for the US empire. It's fun to watch state department ghouls run around with their hair on fire trying to figure out Russia's next moves, which is often just rational capitalist moves given their circumstances. My fever dream is the PRC continuing to undermine US hegemony and court/guide Russia back into an era of a new USSR, finally driving the rest of the global south into revolution and choking off the great Satan.

Support them when they do good things, criticize when they do bad things. It goes for any country. Feels like its 2022 again and people are relearning what "critical support" means.

The leaders of the counter-hegemonic pole are Russia, China, and Iran, and no amount of coping or malding about the real and imagined inadequacies of these three will change this simple fact.

Russia also has a lot of influence in the global south that China lacks. You can give me all the history lessons you want as to why that is but at the end of the day it’s the Russian flag you see rebels waving and not the Chinese one.

When the empire is targeting a designated enemy that undermines the empire, it will deploy constant propaganda against that target.

Those who want to see the end of the empire will then need to take time to explain why the target is not uniquely bad, the criticisms are largely false, etc etc. Otherwise you're just helping manufacture consent for the targeting of that country.

This is the kind of "support" socialists should provide. Push back on Russophobia, collective punishment, the US war machine, support for NATO, and false histories of what's happened in Ukraine and Syria.

Folow up question: Would Russia be such a deranged right-wing oligarchy if it wasn't for the constant US/EU meddling and shitfuckery?

Russia is literally the only reason why countries like Cuba or DPRK are still standing- I do not think China would ever put up the slag in that regard. So the preserverance of russian independence is one of the major ways the global south can be helped.

This is kinda what I was explaining to a lib friend the other day: I was a lot more ambivalent about the SMO before NATO got involved. I didn’t really have a pro/anti position, I just pointed out that this was the natural consequence of the events from 2014 onward.

ever so slightly less dogshit than his dogshit party

The only existing world power state I stan is China.

Thank goodness we have youtubers who deign to give their support for only a subset of those countries opposing NATO. China would be certain to fall without their support, and Russia is doomed without it. /s

Disappointed it's not Justin Timberlake