chapotraphouse

This kind of shit terrifies me to the core because what if I become like that

Heh, that’s nothing. My mentor, one of the best Marxist theorists in the country I grew up in, is now a reactionary who spouts right wing conspiracy theories lol. He got me into Marxism some 25 years ago and was one of the most progressive activists back in the days. Also we’re not from a Western country.

I honestly think that failures after failures of left wing movements globally since the 1990s have broken the brains of many who used to be at the forefront of left wing activism. It also coincided with the period of neoliberalism being spread to the Global South in the form of overseas educated professionals returning and joining social democratic/democratic socialist parties en masse and brought Western liberal ideologies into traditional workers parties.

I sense that many here are probably quite new to the whole socialism/communism thing. It’s sometimes discouraging to think that in another 10-20 years, probably half of your comrades would be fighting you on the other side of the struggle.

I think the other people telling you to cut him off or calling him a fascist are going a little far. "Might as well" isn't exactly a Kamala canvasser, lots of people get alienated in America. The obvious question to ask would be "is the difference big enough to bother voting," and question why his politics have changed.

Ultimately he's your friend and you know him better than anyone on a reddit spinoff forum, and its your call whether to convince him to vote differently or if this should affect your friendship.

Voting in American elections is just signaling your fealty to the regime.

Of course I'm still voting so whatever. I like filling bubbles okay.

This reminds me of when I read a post somewhere about someone who met up with the person who convinced them to go vegan at a cafe after not seeing them for years. The person who convinced them to go vegan ordered a latte with dairy in it and revealed that they're an ex-vegan now. OP was so confused and disappointed.

I may be butchering some of the details, but it was something like that.

The friend who radicalized me is now a fascist-adjacent EU liberal.

It's depressing as fuck and I honestly don't know why, but at some point it's like he just decided to become a bad person. He was a communist when he was like 14, got me into it, then when he was like 17 he became a piece of shit. Insanely misogynistic, would only talk to women he wanted to have sex with, and just incredibly rude to people he didn't know, even when they were nice people.

Now he's moved to the Netherlands to study EU politics or something, and all I know about him comes from his Instagram posts. He posts ableist shit all the time, he's in love with the EU and he just posted a Ukrainian fascist badge which he owns.

I remember sitting in a park with him when we had just finished school, telling him that I was going to join an ML org. He snorted and called them larpers, to which I pointed out that he didn't do any political activity at all, and I'd rather larpers than nothing. He thought because he read Lacan and smoked weed and was cynical that he was above politics.

It's so depressing. He used to be genuinely empathetic. He was a feminist when every boy his age was sexist, he would always tell people of the evil shit the US does, he genuinely got angry at capitalism. Now he's just a sack of shit

I want to get through to him but I am getting stuck.

Why do you care about how they vote? It literally doesn't matter.

Find it pretty funny how electoralist brainworms have infected even socialist Americans to the point that they'd think convincing someone not to vote is a useful course of action.

Just laugh and ignore him honestly. Or go vote to better maintain a friendship. Or lie about it. Again it simply doesn't matter.

Met a kid online when I was a teenager who was the first communist I ever knew.
Then he went to college and was literally brainwashed by liberal propaganda.

Americans are all spineless imperial dogs

The trotskyist who helped a lot to radicalize me (I later became an ML thanks to hexbear) got a good job with the teamsters and is now just a standard liberal as far as I can tell.

Like most Americans, I live in a state where my vote won't matter and I'm keeping my conscience clean. This one is just a bridge way too far for me. I think I would probably reconsider if Rashida Tlaib endorsed Kamala, but I don't think she will or should.

voting is not politics, reading is not politics, make fun of him. If your state loses by 1 vote, tell him he should have gone with a better argument (like 10k donation to rcs)

P.s. (in the realm of absurdist arguments) there is a higher chance that some hot palestinian lady or mma fighter will make trumpo bomb tel aviv, than that kamala will not listen to some bloodless mormon sicko. That's ignoring euros wouldn't go that far along with trumpo. Domestically she would do jack shit cause of the senate anyway

Liberals don't understand that nothing will be better under Harris

... ... ...

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The person who first told me to read Mao, which got me into Marxism-Leninism in general, has become totally incoherent during the pandemic. The difference between us is that I have experience participating in organizations and seeing them fail the marginalized up close, and I experienced some of the same relief Hồ Chí Minh described as I took in Marxism Leninism, but my friend's individualist tendencies have not exposed them enough to the fatal downsides of meandering eclecticism. They are now an antivaxxer who sees all public health as draconian, no AES are good enough for them, just sort of stuck at the Chomsky and Foucault despair dead end.

I hope I am shot in the head immediately if I ever debase myself like this. your friend is dead inside already

the reason you can't provide a counter argument is that his position is completely incoherent. Not saying that just cause I disagree either. You posted 1 sentence that has 4 or 5 different thoughts that are irrelevant or contradictory to each other. Maybe the reason he likes kamala is they are on the same wave length in terms of cognitive context?

But seriously I don't know if logic is the name of the game here. If you are going to try to reciprocate the gift of communism and pull him out of the pit, I wonder if checking for emotional salience might help. I would ask who or what has changed his mind? There could be a relationship: with a person, group, identity, even a parasocial relationship or other indirect influence, that has contributed to this. Or has his relationship to his context changed? Has he discovered a new/latent class allegiance? One of the various trains of thought mentioned is "this time its not like doing this abstract process". What the heck has changed to make it concrete/direct now? Nothing has changed in the system to make it more tangible. If something's different, it's him.

I'm also curious about the variation between the post title and the body. The latter is his weak ass attempt to justify his own behavior which is one thing. But why does he want you to do the same so badly? Surely he knows "might as well" isn't a compelling argument for anything. I won't leave my house for "might as well". Might be downplaying his own commitment to avoid cringe. Or maybe he really cares what you think and wants you to endorse his behavior. Or he has adopted a new theory of change that involves each person getting one other person to vote. In any case, if you can draw that out, it would be clarifying for you both.

I personally don't see the fascism inherent in this small amount of information that others are pointing to. I have heard some almost-compelling arguments made on the issue of abortion alone. I can imagine if I was a different person, with different experiences, and less stubborn, I could be swayed if it came from the right source. We are all influenced by those around us. Some people are really easily influenced.

To inquire in the opposite direction, I might ask him what would convince him to change his mind. Perhaps leading in the direction of a viable political organization to join and act with. Evidence of class power. Instead of focusing on his current trajectory, imagine a different one. A few minutes of world building to get out of your heads.. Imagine a left that wasn't in utter disarray, would you still be making the same argument? If not, why? Because there would be hope! What would it look like? Now is that what the democratic party looks like? Is that what it feels like?

At the end of the day, there are some lessons that can only really be understood and internalized through struggle. You can learn in 30 minutes of experience things you can't learn in 30 years of reading and discussion. Has he done anything communist or was it more of a talking thing? If not, he should.

Sounds like your friend is enraptured by cpusa